How to handle widget selection

[knorke]

- info at the bottom on the screen without background is hard to read (even in the screenshot can you read easily the information?

Indeed sometimes hard to read on some maps. But never so hard that it annoys me. Usually the only thing I read from tooltip is the red/green metal/energy numbers anyway. Sometimes XP of units but that is not really "criticial."

+/- is "hidden" [for volume]

True, but spring has many hidden keys. One good thing is that it is easy & quick to explain in chat.
Player A: How to change volume?
Player B: Press +/- keys.
In zK games players still ask how to change volume and the answers are longer. ("press esc, a menu comes, use the slider") But maybe the menu was already up and now pressing esc hides it etc. Watching friends new to spring play, none of them actually found the volume-slider. I guess it is because there are so many things trying to make it easier to use, that is just too much and cramped.
For (replay) speed next version will have clickable buttons.

- different size text in the icons. It could be icon + tool-tip.
-same position for same actions

True, but imo that is just minor aesthetical issues.
Also "click the attack-button" is easier to understand if there is a button with "attack" text. "Click the red button with the targeting cross" is more confusing. It simply is not possible to make icons that can not be misunderstood, text is more clear.
Of course text is also uglier, but think the idea is that after a while players just press the A-key to attack and hide the button anyway.

tool-tips for new players.

Just checked, almost everything in my GUI has tooltips like this:

Only the metalmaker control thing has no tooltip. But imo new players do not need it and after a while it will be obvious what it does.

Not sure how you can "hint" there are hotkeys, that is also important.

There are tooltips:

But how often do you read chat like this:
Press D!!! Click ground!! omg! D!!! D!! click! commander! d! click!
Think not many players read those tips during their first games. Making them bigger/more noticeable would not help it, just make it more confusing if all those tips/hints are fighting for attention.

----

I think we still need an option panel which shows the relevant option for XTA and not all the widgets. I really do not like the F11 menu from usability point of view.

Partly. F11 menu does not look nice and feels a bit "too techy" but it works. When asked it is quite easy to give answers such as "press F11, click [name] so that it turns green."
With the proposed grouping of widgets: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p547767
F11 would be even easier to use. Would also be easier to see which widgets can be toggled on/off for customisation and which ones should always stay on.

I am not that new, and still I wonder sometimes about one thing or another.

Think almost everybody has had this situation where after years of playing you suddendly learn about something new. But putting all this (sometimes obscure) things into the game (as helptexts etc) does not work, imo such things are better in out-of-game manuals.
Even something basic like "placing buildings" is serious business in spring: http://springrts.com/wiki/Balanced_Anni ... _Buildings
Just not possible to put such information into the game.

[luckywaldo7]

So does this mean there is a minimalist UI revamp coming for XTA?

[smoth]

you know what is awesome? widgets can be easily disabled... so it's like, if you don't like it, you can make your own! OMG.

[malric]

Indeed sometimes hard to read on some maps. But never so hard that it annoys me. Usually the only thing I read from tooltip is the red/green metal/energy numbers anyway. Sometimes XP of units but that is not really "criticial."

Anyhow if someone has nothing better to do please add some background to that text...

In zK games players still ask how to change volume and the answers are longer.

I would argue that there might be many players that do not need to ask because they find it on their own.Not sure, maybe it is on by default (still not on main computer, can't check)

True, but imo that is just minor aesthetical issues.

Tried to show XTA to some people, nobody liked how it looked. Showed zk and they were sufficiently interested to play couple of games.

With the proposed grouping of widgets F11 would be even easier to use. Would also be easier to see which widgets can be toggled on/off for customisation and which ones should always stay on.

Any improvement of F11 is welcomed .

Just not possible to put such information into the game.

We should at least try. No idea how you would put that info, for what I was commenting I had some (imperfect) suggestions...

[knorke]

So does this mean there is a minimalist UI revamp coming for XTA?

Why "coming"?
XTA already has such minimalist UI.
Imo it is okay, apart from some small things.
---

Anyhow if someone has nothing better to do please add some background to that text...[tooltip]

The engine tooltip might have different sizes depending on screen resolution, font size, etc. so that would not work so good.
Though could edit some tooltip widget, for example redUI tooltip, to have background.

Btw can customize the build/command menu by editing ctrlpanel.txt
For example smaller icons and with bigger gaps inbetween.
Kinda ugly imo but just example:

Code: Select all

iconBorder 0.005
frameBorder 0.001
xIconSize      0.04
yIconSize      0.04

(Ingame type /ctrlpanel to reload it after editing.)
Never really tested how editing ctrlpanel.txt works and how it can be included in mod... Maybe someone feels like experimenting?
Might be that background of tooltip can be edited in some file, too.

The engine menu is like a tetris box, all the buildicons and buttons get thrown in and stack up. So there is afaik no way to guarantee that, for example, "toggle firestate" will always be in the top right corner if you select multiple units with more buttons.
But it never felt really annoying to me, maybe because it is few buttons and they "mostly" are in usual position.
Kind of a "have unused space" vs "button always in same position" situation.


More tooltips (example: unit descriptions) will probally not happen simply because all of the current players know all units.
If you find some things that really need tooltip (like metalmaker controll) please list, maybe there is a way to add.

Hope that adresses all your points somewhat.
Parts sound a bit "no-no", sorry about that.

Think many things really realisticaly not happen because XTA is not really aimed at (attracting) new players as much as ie zK is. More important is that current players like it. Think that explains some (lack) of UI etc.
Of course new players are always welcome etc but "mod must look good to new players when they see it, must leave good first impression" is just not priority...Leave such panic to other mods and just play

[luckywaldo7]

So does this mean there is a minimalist UI revamp coming for XTA?

Why "coming"?
XTA already has such minimalist UI.
Imo it is okay, apart from some small things.
---

It's not minimalist at all, except perhaps in the amount of effort you put into it. (Comparing to ZK doesn't count as making it minimalist)

[knorke]

Not sure how it could be more minimalistic, for example the default engine command/build menu is imo as basic as it can get.

[luckywaldo7]

Well, if you wanted to push minimalism like that gif you posted, there are a lot of places you could remove text and numbers, and definitely remove some of those floating windows, or at the very least align them decently.

And clean up those fonts (some are almost entirely unreadable, some have outlines or borders instead or nothing at all, and they are nearly all different sizes), fix up consistency between containers (do they seriously all have different shades of gray and/or levels of transparency), and fix those spots where text overlaps onto the containers.

If you want to fix up your interface for "consistency", pretty much every element needs to be remade.

[smoth]

lol... omg it is IMPOSSIBLE to remove the backgrounds... it isn't like you can adjust the alpha or anything..


(to be clear, this is me cropping out the image to just the relevant pieces not showing all the screenspace.)

[Jools]

Luckowaldo is right, as of now there are small aesthetical flaws with all UI elements, they use different grey etc...

It's because they are all made by different people.It's not like we in Spring have a graphical team that does the UI.

But IMO, while is UI is a bit imperfect, it's not serious. But the F11 menu is a bit of outdated and I'm glad there is work being done on a new one.

[malric]

Parts sound a bit "no-no", sorry about that.

Don't be sorry, I just try to bring some opinions to the discussion as I play XTA sometimes and I think it is good everybody to say what he thinks. Guess that if I really would mind/want somethig I could do it myself .

Also, for me, I play XTA more for the type of the people that play, rather than for interface and etc.

[knorke]

almost entirely unreadable

Which part? Did you view the image in fullsize or resized to forum width, to me it is all readable.
The unitgroups widget has some bad text, but only use it because it flashes when units in group get attacked.

and definitely remove some of those floating windows or at the very least align them decently.

Not sure which windows you mean.
I am happy as long as all elements are somewhere along the edge of screen.
Of course there are some silly gaps like this, that could line up better:

(resized&cut)
But that does not compromise functionality one bit.
I just resize minimap until either its right side meets resourcebar or bottom bar meets buildmenu. Since maps have different length/width ratios it can look a bit different but nothing too wild imo.
As long nothing pops up in middle of screen or overlaps, I do not care about the excact pixel-perfect position.

If you want to fix up your interface for "consistency", pretty much every element needs to be remade.

Do not want to
That is what I was trying to say, consistency of small things like fifty shades of grey is the sort of thing that does not bother me at all.

lol... omg it is IMPOSSIBLE to remove the backgrounds... it isn't like you can adjust the alpha or anything..

Do not feel like editing all widgets just to change some numbers so that some greys are more similiar. Is boring. If I was to do something, would make widgets all use the same color from a config file but cba to do it "right" task because such details do not bother me.
Also do not know about changing engine stuff colors/transparency.

[Jools]

Of course there are some silly gaps like this, that could line up better:

I fixed (in SVN) the included widget "Relative Minimap" so that it reads the config from ctrlPanelImp and lines up with it. So at least that's something. But Control Panel improved is not included with xta.

[klapmongool]

IceUI is still a very nice UI, including the F11 screen.

[smoth]

It's not like we in Spring have a graphical team that does the UI.

sigh. It is not like XTA could not have one of you dedicate some time to help make it's ui. I managed the time when I was doing gundam and even though you don't like the style of it, it is a quantum leap above what you have. which is nothing.

Expecting someone to magically appear and do a well done ui for ALL SPRING GAMES is idiotic and even among *A is is colossally stupid.

I don't agree with much of what is being said but I am tired of reading all these armchair designers who come in afterwards. As far as I am concerned if you are not going to sit down and really do it you can shut up. Funkencool has my respect for his work and several of you have lost much respect for deriding his work when you are clearly uninterested in posting more than incoherent ideas that when stitched together would look worse than zk's ui years ago.

I think the conversation is good but as always around here it is the idea guys talking about how great it would be if.



*vent over*

[knorke]

The idea is to spend time playing XTA - not doing XTA.

Rest of post you just make up offensive things and then argue against them? For example nobody has "derided Funkencool works."
Please stop posting from iphone in subforum of games you do not play.

[smoth]

The idea is to spend time playing XTA - not doing XTA.

And yet they are in here writing walls of text about how bad all the interfaces in spring are.

Rest of post you just make up offensive things and then argue against them? For example nobody has "derided Funkencool works."

The fact that he had to come in here and post about how it is a WIP in defense of his work makes me feel otherwise

Please stop posting from iphone in subforum of games you do not play.

No problem, that was from my laptop.

[Jools]

I just wanted to say again thanks for all the great tips. Sometimes rereading old posts gives you perspective and I know there are some things I forgot about.

About the fonts: I've cleaned up some of the fonts, it really helps readability if you make the font have either outline or shadow, and that the font doesn't scale from when you define it.

The newer (?) way of handling fonts is better than the one most of us has been using for a while, it has more flexibility.

I'm not a font expert, but I've seen good results from using the same front that is spring default, namely FreeSansBold. I load it for each various size with

Code: Select all

myfont = gl.LoadFont("FreeSansBold.otf",size, 1.9, 40).

By using myfont:Print you get better shadows and outlines as compared to gl.Text or fonthandler.Draw, and this is important for readability.

Again, to have professional results I think you would need to hire a design professional, but a lot can be improved by paying attention to the fonts. I think the tooltip widget could be the next target for a better font.

By the way, the reason it is cut off is just because it's vertical position is a bit off, you can move it with middle mouse button.

[Jools]

Again I would like to say thanks for the great tips.

About elements such as this:

Kinda ugly imo but just example:

I don't think there is anything ugly or wrong about that build menu. It's clear, not bloated and fulfills its function. It is possible to rearrange the order of commands, but it's a lot of work and I don't honestly think that's such a big problem. For most things that you need often you should use keyboard shortcuts instead if you want to be competitive. But one thing: we could sort these build orders, like land first, water last etc.

It's not like we in Spring have a graphical team that does the UI.

sigh. It is not like XTA could not have one of you dedicate some time to help make it's ui. I managed the time when I was doing gundam and even though you don't like the style of it, it is a quantum leap above what you have. which is nothing.

This is of course true, we can't have one guy just thinking about the GUI. I'm not so sure I like those images you posted either, they are messy in my mind. There is more work put into them than in xta, which is nothing, but that's actually what we want, we want less bloat and let people concentarte on the actual game area.

Still, some things could be added, like a basic menu and a widget menu. I like Funkencool's widget selector in BAR, what's the deal with reusing that code, are we allowed to do that, and would it be even possible without chili?

And about chili: is it a all or nothing thing: can you implement some parts of chili, say for main menu, but not all other stuff? The big advantage over chili is of course that it's managed, but I didn't find many skins actually that usable, they are either white text with white background so that you cannot see anything, or too skeuomorphic. I like flat and minimalistic design.

Would it be possible to for instance implement just this chili menu button:



Along with maybe this menu:



Maybe with some more options specific for XTA?

We currently have these hidden windows that are accessible with keyboard commands:

Mod options: Ctrl-I:



Energy overview: Ctrl-E



Game settings: Ctrl-F11:



It would be nice to have these screens look about the same and be accessible by a menu. The menu could even look as simple as the windows one for instance:



And there's actually not much wrong with the engine supplied quit menu:



So maybe an Exit button could be just bound to that.

Any thoughts?

[smoth]

I don't think there is anything ugly or wrong about that build menu. It's clear, not bloated and fulfills its function. It is possible to rearrange the order of commands, but it's a lot of work and I don't honestly think that's such a big problem. For most things that you need often you should use keyboard shortcuts instead if you want to be competitive. But one thing: we could sort these build orders, like land first, water last etc.

when you have 2 pages the orders are lost when when you go to the second page. Another example of half-implemented ota-isms. In ota, you could navigate all build options and still have order buttons.

This is of course true, we can't have one guy just thinking about the GUI. I'm not so sure I like those images you posted either, they are messy in my mind. There is more work put into them than in xta, which is nothing, but that's actually what we want, we want less bloat and let people concentrate on the actual game area.

In my shot you can collapse the research bar that is what the little arrow is. The rank bar is relevant and gundam has 3 resources, power and an income timer all rolled into 1 bar on the right side. So if managing 3 resources+power+incometimer+techpoints is too much for xta that is because xta didn't have all of that. The 2 white boxes in the middle are there because I have not hidden them and the lower left corner is a tool that lets me change all color settings in my gui. So of the windows you see here, only 3 are necessary(chat, income/power, rank).

Still, some things could be added, like a basic menu and a widget menu. I like Funkencool's widget selector in BAR, what's the deal with reusing that code, are we allowed to do that, and would it be even possible without chili?

It would be possible without chili but it is much messier to do all the gl shit in your code.

And about chili: is it a all or nothing thing: can you implement some parts of chili, say for main menu, but not all other stuff?

when you say all or nothing, do you mean does everything have to be chili? no, certainly not but your gui will look as hodge-podge as the zk units.

The big advantage over chili is of course that it's managed, but I didn't find many skins actually that usable, they are either white text with white background so that you cannot see anything, or too skeuomorphic. I like flat and minimalistic design.

As far as skins, make your own. You can always disable all the image based stuff. I am not sure if it is intended but I have played with chilis fallback stuff before. It looks like windows 97 though. As far as flat and minimalistic designs, again, start doing your own skin, you don't have to have all the little visual greebles and shit.

Would it be possible to for instance implement just this chili menu button:
.

Yes

Along with maybe this menu:
.


Maybe with some more options specific for XTA?

Yes.

We currently have these hidden windows that are accessible with keyboard commands:

Mod options: Ctrl-I:



Energy overview: Ctrl-E



Game settings: Ctrl-F11:

Yes. Easily done. Like I said, my research tree actually is shown/hidden based on a button press.

It would be nice to have these screens look about the same and be accessible by a menu. The menu could even look as simple as the windows one for instance:

You would do a chilibutton and have an image. Done.

And there's actually not much wrong with the engine supplied quit menu:



So maybe an Exit button could be just bound to that.

I have no idea how to call this menu via chili but you should be able to easily bind it to a button.

Any thoughts?

I think you fucked up your quote brackets.