Regarding the FPS "gimmick"
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
No need to enter anything. I was thinking of a formula. The higher the HP/metal/build time or what ever, the less the stat increase. Maybe something like this?SwiftSpear wrote:I would NEED to add FPS statistics individually for every specific unit your way. I'm sorry crow, but I really don't like working with your imaginary game engine.
200/(hp)=percentage
Min. 5% and max. would be 50%
It's only an idea.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Ok, seriously... how can you not see it as bad engine design to corner yourself into only one potential gameplay neiche? Automatically calulated varables are gross because then the mod maker doesn't have control over what is going on. It could make scout units illogical when they suddenly become overwhelmingly powerful fighters due to thier inially low damage and health, and that's just the beginning of where the problems start. It might work some of the time, but most of the time it will most likely just break things, expecially if spring moves into other genres like it it may be.CrowJuice wrote:No need to enter anything. I was thinking of a formula. The higher the HP/metal/build time or what ever, the less the stat increase. Maybe something like this?SwiftSpear wrote:I would NEED to add FPS statistics individually for every specific unit your way. I'm sorry crow, but I really don't like working with your imaginary game engine.
200/(hp)=percentage
Min. 5% and max. would be 50%
It's only an idea.
If i see a krogg and i cant stop it, i try to kill enemy's energy.
Now if i see a possesed krog.. should i try to kill the player? lol
Fpsing alone is cool enough.
no need for any boost.
Many of you seem to forget this is a RTS.
edit: and this
edit2: many of the suggestions here aim to make the current fps mode look better in the most simple way, not to transform spring into a shooter
edit3:
).
Now if i see a possesed krog.. should i try to kill the player? lol
Fpsing alone is cool enough.
no need for any boost.
Many of you seem to forget this is a RTS.
edit: and this
... could be used in the new unit format.. in the part about modularity...How bout a model that is specified in the FBi file. Thenyou could, if you were boring, make only model for your whole army. Or, if you wanted to go into more detail, make a model for each unit
edit2: many of the suggestions here aim to make the current fps mode look better in the most simple way, not to transform spring into a shooter
edit3:
wow, that souds complete. Adding 2 or more "camera" pieces could be a cheap way to the very cool "change camera" old feat.. (like a camera just under brawler's barrelsThis peice would behave like a normal peice, but would also be the location of the camera. This unit could also be scripted, to give a bobbing motion while walking in kbots, or a shaking movment while driving a tank, and stuff like that.
).Well, FPS mode has a lota room to grow. Its like Unit Control (UC for all you otaers) to a whole other level. In OTA, and even in spring, if you have 2 rushers rushing each other, and have say...2 flashes going 1v1, the winner will obviously go on to destroy valuable mexes. The person with better UC will win.
Even in OTA, if u had good UC, you could also do what was called "line bombing." FPS mode with what other people are suggesting sounds nice. IMO, I think for kbots, make em controllable like in Mechwarrior, using the numpad. 7 and 9 for torso turns, 4 and 6 for viewing left and right, 8 and 2 for adjusting the torso to pitch up or down. maybe even 0 for jump haha (j/k, would be fun to see tho, a jumping peewee). Anyway, this seems to me, an easy way to make the controlls. Tanks could be similar too.
Would also be nice if you could adjust the speed of the controlled unit, might add more strategy into the game.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Even in OTA, if u had good UC, you could also do what was called "line bombing." FPS mode with what other people are suggesting sounds nice. IMO, I think for kbots, make em controllable like in Mechwarrior, using the numpad. 7 and 9 for torso turns, 4 and 6 for viewing left and right, 8 and 2 for adjusting the torso to pitch up or down. maybe even 0 for jump haha (j/k, would be fun to see tho, a jumping peewee). Anyway, this seems to me, an easy way to make the controlls. Tanks could be similar too.
Would also be nice if you could adjust the speed of the controlled unit, might add more strategy into the game.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Stat increase could be good. Add support for it if you have some spare time. DO NOT have it on by default. Please. It would break lots of things. Have it as a lobby option if you HAVE to, so these people stop whining, but this is an RTS, not a FPS. Sure the FPS mode is fun, and it could use some more attention, but you dont need to turn a perfectly good RTS into a RTS/FPS cross. It would break everything. I dont care if you say its 'balanced'. It wont be. You could NEVER balance anything like that. Especially not for every mod. It would just not work. The cosmetic upgrades me and a few others suggested would be quite cool, but these are again not top priority. But FPS Stats boost is just crap.
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Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
Okay, first off I haven't been a noob about this. Can't remember who said that, but read my posts fully before making these comments, OK?
I did mention that the stronger the unit was, the less boost it should get. (Thanks for refreshing that point, Crow, it needed saying again.) A formula is a good idea. As for the other objections here...
1. An FPSd unit would have a dirty great hologram floating over its head in my scenario. The enemy would know this unit was more powerful than usual.
2. There is no reason in the world why this would break any mod. It would be open to both sides.
3. Modmakers should have the option of turning it off, or stating separate values, or changing the underlying formulas. So give modmakers the option of turning it off, or stating separate values, or changing the underlying formulas.
That really demolishes your arguments, I feel. If all this were implemented I really fail to see how it would unbalance or take away from Spring. After all, it's not as though you'd have to use it.
I did mention that the stronger the unit was, the less boost it should get. (Thanks for refreshing that point, Crow, it needed saying again.) A formula is a good idea. As for the other objections here...
1. An FPSd unit would have a dirty great hologram floating over its head in my scenario. The enemy would know this unit was more powerful than usual.
2. There is no reason in the world why this would break any mod. It would be open to both sides.
3. Modmakers should have the option of turning it off, or stating separate values, or changing the underlying formulas. So give modmakers the option of turning it off, or stating separate values, or changing the underlying formulas.
That really demolishes your arguments, I feel. If all this were implemented I really fail to see how it would unbalance or take away from Spring. After all, it's not as though you'd have to use it.
By all means, implement it. But have it off by default. The balancing things might make it balanced, and yes both teams can use it. But this just would not work in most mods. If it does work in a mod, and you do want to include it, by all means go ahead. But otherwise, turn it off! Major changes like this shouldnt be on by default.
Dont get me wrong, I do think that this could be good if done right (dungeon seige has been mentioned). But this is an RTS. Not the ungodly love child of AOE and CS. Yes, by all means, implement it. It could be quite fun. But PLEASE do not have it on by default.
Dont get me wrong, I do think that this could be good if done right (dungeon seige has been mentioned). But this is an RTS. Not the ungodly love child of AOE and CS. Yes, by all means, implement it. It could be quite fun. But PLEASE do not have it on by default.
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Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
So having it on by default, and haivng to manually diable it is NOT forcing it upon the poor mod makers? Please, as you said, think before you post.
And if you are not going to implement it, who is? Im SURE Zaphod has enough on his plate already, with bug fixes, Upspring, JCAI, and general admin stuff. Unless you can find some coder on these forums with nothing to do (Yea right
), I think your a bit stuck with getting this implemented.
And if you are not going to implement it, who is? Im SURE Zaphod has enough on his plate already, with bug fixes, Upspring, JCAI, and general admin stuff. Unless you can find some coder on these forums with nothing to do (Yea right
), I think your a bit stuck with getting this implemented.-
Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
I'm not talking 'on by default' as in on for every unit. There would be a global variable. Something like FPSBoost = 1, FPSMode = 1. This would enable the rest of the code.
As for who will implement this, if anyone does, I do not know. But there's no reason to not bother with ideas just because you don't know how to do them. It's unlikely, I'll grant you, but there is always a chance someone in the know will take a look at this and decide to give it a chance.
The Collective
As for who will implement this, if anyone does, I do not know. But there's no reason to not bother with ideas just because you don't know how to do them. It's unlikely, I'll grant you, but there is always a chance someone in the know will take a look at this and decide to give it a chance.
The Collective
I fail to see how this would not work in/break most mods, or all of them for that matter. Could you please point it out to me?Maelstrom wrote:But this just would not work in most mods.
The only thing FSP mode does is give the player a disadvantage. There is no way one can control a full war and at the same time FPS'ing a lone unit.
well, this are just ideas, nobody is really making this, thats why some if us are suggesting the most minimal changes, mostly cosmetic ones.
more tags?.. for this??... uhm..
there IS a boost you can take adv. in FPS mode already.
can you say which?
No, you dumb nuv, its the experience of the unit.
If you are a good at FPS mode, your unit will "gain" experience, and that will benefit your stats.. good enough for me.
(really really dunno how you can be good at fps, with all the lag in-game. its barely possible to use a weasel or fast unit rigth).
on a side note: yesterday we and a bunch of lugers took over a base and then gangbanged the commander.
more tags?.. for this??... uhm..
there IS a boost you can take adv. in FPS mode already.
can you say which?
No, you dumb nuv, its the experience of the unit.
If you are a good at FPS mode, your unit will "gain" experience, and that will benefit your stats.. good enough for me.
(really really dunno how you can be good at fps, with all the lag in-game. its barely possible to use a weasel or fast unit rigth).
on a side note: yesterday we and a bunch of lugers took over a base and then gangbanged the commander.
How could this NOT break a mod? These mods, as I and other people have previously stated, are RTS's. Not FPS/RTS cross overs. This could break a mod by:
1) Having over powered units. Yes, this can be countered, but no matter how good your algorithm is, there will still be some units that wont fit. adding values for every unit would just be to tedious for people to do, so this is also not a viable option.
2) Distracting people from the actual RTS part of the game. Its an RTS, not a FPS. And if some of the things that people are talking about (Building/ordering from the units perspective), then this would REALLY distract from the real RTS part of it, as you are always in side a unit instead of commanding properly.
3) It could be very easily abused. If there is the slightest flaw in the working of this, it will be abused. Belive me, after seeing some of the glicthes in other games that were ruthlessly abused, any bug/glitch WILL be found and abused. And people will do it. Just look at basicly any online game out there.
And Targ, even if it is just one measly little variable that needs to be toggled, it will still need to be done. Consider the following situations:
Situation 1)
There is two mods. On wants this FPS thing on. One wants it off. Either way, someone is going to have to edit their mod. Auto on/off does not adversly affect one side more.
Situation 2)
There is four mods. Three want it off, and one wants it on. The best option here is to have it automatically off, to help the most people.
Situation 3)
There is again four mods. Three want it on, and one wants it off. The best option here is obviously to have it auto on, so only one person has to change again.
Situation 1 and 3 are what you are thinking will happen. Situation 2 is what will most likely happen. From the few mod makers that have posted in this thread, it sounds like they dont want it on automatically. Also consider this. Say there was a mod that had finished production. No more releases were coming out. It had been built and balanced around the non-FPS boosted game. Now when this thing comes along, with its balance issues and bugs, the mod is, as someone previously said, anally screwed. Either the mod maker, who had stopped making this mod goes back and disables the FPS boost, or tries in vain to balance all the different options. This would prompt many new releases as all the mods try to balance or disable this feature, inconviniancing EVERYONE who playes those mods. Just to keep you and a few other people happy. Do you really want that on your head?
1) Having over powered units. Yes, this can be countered, but no matter how good your algorithm is, there will still be some units that wont fit. adding values for every unit would just be to tedious for people to do, so this is also not a viable option.
2) Distracting people from the actual RTS part of the game. Its an RTS, not a FPS. And if some of the things that people are talking about (Building/ordering from the units perspective), then this would REALLY distract from the real RTS part of it, as you are always in side a unit instead of commanding properly.
3) It could be very easily abused. If there is the slightest flaw in the working of this, it will be abused. Belive me, after seeing some of the glicthes in other games that were ruthlessly abused, any bug/glitch WILL be found and abused. And people will do it. Just look at basicly any online game out there.
And Targ, even if it is just one measly little variable that needs to be toggled, it will still need to be done. Consider the following situations:
Situation 1)
There is two mods. On wants this FPS thing on. One wants it off. Either way, someone is going to have to edit their mod. Auto on/off does not adversly affect one side more.
Situation 2)
There is four mods. Three want it off, and one wants it on. The best option here is to have it automatically off, to help the most people.
Situation 3)
There is again four mods. Three want it on, and one wants it off. The best option here is obviously to have it auto on, so only one person has to change again.
Situation 1 and 3 are what you are thinking will happen. Situation 2 is what will most likely happen. From the few mod makers that have posted in this thread, it sounds like they dont want it on automatically. Also consider this. Say there was a mod that had finished production. No more releases were coming out. It had been built and balanced around the non-FPS boosted game. Now when this thing comes along, with its balance issues and bugs, the mod is, as someone previously said, anally screwed. Either the mod maker, who had stopped making this mod goes back and disables the FPS boost, or tries in vain to balance all the different options. This would prompt many new releases as all the mods try to balance or disable this feature, inconviniancing EVERYONE who playes those mods. Just to keep you and a few other people happy. Do you really want that on your head?
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Targ Collective
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16
...No.
Point taken. Very comprehensively put, too. Backwards compatibilty is very important; I apologise for not considering it.
I don't see why this would unbalance a mod though. The FPSed unit would be visible to all, and a default algorithm-sourced boost such as Crowjuice suggested would keep the strengths of our respective sides in scale. A massive squadron of gunships with an FPSer in there would still be ripped to shreds by a base filled with anti-air, and a Goliath that could take an extra Annihilator shot before going belly-up would still go belly up. The only difference I see would be another dimension to the game, another way of (potentially) gaining the upper hand. It would also be an interesting take on the Spring engine.
EDIT: These units that don't fit... I presume you're thinking of something like a speed-boosted Goliath? Easy enough to fix, just disable a speed boost for units of the movement class defined if their attack capabilities are way into the upper strata - unless the unit is a hero-class unit such as a commander or Krogoth. Defensive structures should be exempt from boosting, I think. We all know what makes a unit unbalanced, and these units that don't fit shouldn't be a problem as there are unlikely to be too many massively high-powered units in the average mod.
It would be possible to cater for them even so, by using flags like Tech1, Tech2, Tech3 etc.
Point taken. Very comprehensively put, too. Backwards compatibilty is very important; I apologise for not considering it.
I don't see why this would unbalance a mod though. The FPSed unit would be visible to all, and a default algorithm-sourced boost such as Crowjuice suggested would keep the strengths of our respective sides in scale. A massive squadron of gunships with an FPSer in there would still be ripped to shreds by a base filled with anti-air, and a Goliath that could take an extra Annihilator shot before going belly-up would still go belly up. The only difference I see would be another dimension to the game, another way of (potentially) gaining the upper hand. It would also be an interesting take on the Spring engine.
EDIT: These units that don't fit... I presume you're thinking of something like a speed-boosted Goliath? Easy enough to fix, just disable a speed boost for units of the movement class defined if their attack capabilities are way into the upper strata - unless the unit is a hero-class unit such as a commander or Krogoth. Defensive structures should be exempt from boosting, I think. We all know what makes a unit unbalanced, and these units that don't fit shouldn't be a problem as there are unlikely to be too many massively high-powered units in the average mod.
It would be possible to cater for them even so, by using flags like Tech1, Tech2, Tech3 etc.
That were the beta comes from. Did SY disable FPS mode when it could be abused to shot at extrem ranges? Or did they fix it since it's a beta?Maelstrom wrote: 1) Having over powered units. Yes, this can be countered, but no matter how good your algorithm is, there will still be some units that wont fit. adding values for every unit would just be to tedious for people to do, so this is also not a viable option.
Nice of you to care about other people but it really isn't your problem. If someone wants to FPS a unit then and sacrefice the controll over his other units then let him. No need for you or me to ban it for him since you find it unfare for him.Maelstrom wrote:2) Distracting people from the actual RTS part of the game. Its an RTS, not a FPS. And if some of the things that people are talking about (Building/ordering from the units perspective), then this would REALLY distract from the real RTS part of it, as you are always in side a unit instead of commanding properly.
That is how it is with mostly all new features/gameplay additions right? And often gets fixed in next build/major releases right?Maelstrom wrote:3) It could be very easily abused. If there is the slightest flaw in the working of this, it will be abused. Belive me, after seeing some of the glicthes in other games that were ruthlessly abused, any bug/glitch WILL be found and abused. And people will do it. Just look at basicly any online game out there.
Like how it is with radartargeting and ghosted buildings to name a few? Hei I'm all for disabling features but not ban one. Should we ban auto radartargeting since there are some people(including some mod makers if I belive correctly) who do not like it? Or should we make it into a on/off switch? With default on like it is with auto radartargetingMaelstrom wrote:And Targ, even if it is just one measly little variable that needs to be toggled, it will still need to be done. Consider the following situations:
Situation 1)
There is two mods. On wants this FPS thing on. One wants it off. Either way, someone is going to have to edit their mod. Auto on/off does not adversly affect one side more.
Situation 2)
There is four mods. Three want it off, and one wants it on. The best option here is to have it automatically off, to help the most people.
Situation 3)
There is again four mods. Three want it on, and one wants it off. The best option here is obviously to have it auto on, so only one person has to change again.
Situation 1 and 3 are what you are thinking will happen. Situation 2 is what will most likely happen. From the few mod makers that have posted in this thread, it sounds like they dont want it on automatically. Also consider this. Say there was a mod that had finished production. No more releases were coming out. It had been built and balanced around the non-FPS boosted game. Now when this thing comes along, with its balance issues and bugs, the mod is, as someone previously said, anally screwed. Either the mod maker, who had stopped making this mod goes back and disables the FPS boost, or tries in vain to balance all the different options. This would prompt many new releases as all the mods try to balance or disable this feature, inconviniancing EVERYONE who playes those mods. Just to keep you and a few other people happy. Do you really want that on your head?
The last sentence is more of a personal opinion