Played Spring a bit recently

[Johannes]

Factories with repeat OFF are more intuitive for a new player. If he later turns it on repeat, or even puts on the widget to do it automatically, at that point he knows what's happening when he does that.



Oh and I realized what might be Jazs problem with pathing - BA switched to units having turninplace=0, which while gets units to move faster on turns, makes them less responsive. But units with turninplace=1 were made really sluggish by engine at some point, so it's kinda meh either way.
Solution could be to lower turnspeedlimit more.

[marciolino]

Factories with repeat OFF are more intuitive for a new player. If he later turns it on repeat, or even puts on the widget to do it automatically, at that point he knows what's happening when he does that.

Imho, it is just the oposite. Factories with repeat ON will avoid some micro when you are a newbie.

And for the rest, I agree that all the "on by default" widgets should be done to help newbies. Pros can easily turn them off.

[Johannes]

Factories with repeat OFF are more intuitive for a new player. If he later turns it on repeat, or even puts on the widget to do it automatically, at that point he knows what's happening when he does that.

Imho, it is just the oposite. Factories with repeat ON will avoid some micro when you are a newbie.

That doesn't have to do with what's intuitive necessarily. They first need to realize what micro they are avoiding or undertaking in the situation - at that point they can decide to use it or not.

[smoth]

They first need to realize what micro they are avoiding or undertaking in the situation - at that point they can decide to use it or not.

so you are saying that once they have played enough to know they are on repeat...

[Forboding Angel]

In evo, I added repeat to a keybind. If you select anything that can repeat in evo and press q, repeat will turn on.

[Johannes]

They first need to realize what micro they are avoiding or undertaking in the situation - at that point they can decide to use it or not.

so you are saying that once they have played enough to know they are on repeat...

Think of people coming from any other RTS. They're not used to having their factory on repeat. If it's on by default, they'll be confused for a moment, then realize how this works, then be annoyed/indifferent/happy about the mechanism. I don't know how many will be put off by it, but undoubtedly some will be. And they might not realize that they can turn it off.

Compare to the situation where factory repeat is off by default. Nobody will be surprised to see that it works that way. Later if they discover that they can put it on repeat, the people into that will be happy about it, while people not into it can just keep going as they were.

Having a neutral -> positive reaction from repeat users is better than having negative -> neutral reaction from non-repeat users.

[klapmongool]

Having a factory always on repeat makes no sense whatsoever. Especially the first units out of a new lab (on t1 some scouts, some cons and then some particular fighting units you might need for a situation, on t2 cons and a particular unit (maybe a quick fatty or a golly?)) you don't want on repeat. Not only do you need specific units to roll out of that lab, you also simply don't have the eco 9 out of 10 times to do a repeating queue. Defaulting to repeat is therefore a noobtrap. I cannot believe that you guys are discussing this. Yes, I will call your expertise in question if you continue on this.

[smoth]

Go ahead and call me out on it.

Hang on while I fear what your opinion of me is.

Johan, you have an opinion I have mine. I don't expect that debating you on it will change yours and you would be a fool to think I would agree with you. I see you points but see many reasons to disagree, and to what end would it lead us? Nowhere, I would get less done and you would play less games. It would just be a circle of argument going no where.

[very_bad_soldier]

Having a factory always on repeat makes no sense whatsoever.

Wait, what? You do actually let your factory idle around? Really?

[Forboding Angel]

Having a factory always on repeat makes no sense whatsoever. Especially the first units out of a new lab (on t1 some scouts, some cons and then some particular fighting units you might need for a situation, on t2 cons and a particular unit (maybe a quick fatty or a golly?)) you don't want on repeat. Not only do you need specific units to roll out of that lab, you also simply don't have the eco 9 out of 10 times to do a repeating queue. Defaulting to repeat is therefore a noobtrap. I cannot believe that you guys are discussing this. Yes, I will call your expertise in question if you continue on this.

I agree completely.

Of course I approach everything from an evo mindset, but the other day I ended up accidentally building 12 engineers. It isn't a huge deal, because in evo they cost only 5 metal (half the cost of a light raider), but still that's 60 metal, which is significant. I could have had 6 raiders.

In evo, you end up using wait commands a lot on factories. I can't think of any scenario where having repeat on by default would be helpful. Plus, in evo repeat is bound to Q. Why doesn't *A or whatever you guys play just do that? It's not like it's hard...

Add to the unsynced portion of your favorite gadget:

Code: Select all

	--UNSYNCED
	-- replace fps mode bind with capture
	Spring.SendCommands({
		"unbindkeyset c",
	})
	Spring.SendCommands("bind c capture")
	-- set repeat to be bound to q
	Spring.SendCommands({
		"unbindkeyset q",
	})
	Spring.SendCommands("bind q repeat")
	

Actually doah, any of you could add that to a widget or uikeys (can repeat be bound in uikeys?).

[PepeAmpere]

In NOTA we solved the problem of widgets partly by making NOTApacks (for windows players), that are released with new versions of Spring. Such packs containts last engine portable, last gamefile, last notalobby, one or 42 maps (depends which pack you choose), and around 20 widgets, that are not included in game file. In that pack theres widget config file, that helps the newbies to have ready GUI at some compromise default state, most of the widgets ON (you can check the changelog of pack http://nota.machys.net/download/changelog.txt)

Im user of such packs, too, its the way how to show game to my friends or collegues in job . Nice for LANparties, too. No stress for them with additional downloads, some tunning. Just download and play. Every other way makes the game accesable only for hardcore players. It works btw, in last 4 months we have around 100 downloads of mod/gamefile BUT more than 500 downloads of gamepack.

I agree its not good to put all widgets stuff into game/mod file. I put there only things, that are necessary for understanding the game (startpos/box, basicGUI,...). All other things are mostly in LuaUI/Widgets folder of pack, as you can see in changelog.

Btw i was thinking much about autorepeat of factories, too. :) Current state is, we have it default ON in NOTA gampacks, becouse everytime I introducing new players into mod, my 3rd-5th advice is: set your factory on repeat, its a loop :).

[smoth]

that pack thing is a neat idea.

[Johannes]

Actually doah, any of you could add that to a widget or uikeys (can repeat be bound in uikeys?).

Sure.

bind [key] repeat

All of that widget is simpler to do in uikeys.

[klapmongool]

Go ahead and call me out on it.
Hang on while I fear what your opinion of me is.

Why don't you go hang in a subforum of a game that you DO play.

Having a factory always on repeat makes no sense whatsoever.

Wait, what? You do actually let your factory idle around? Really?

No of course not. I queue the units that i want it to make. Like at start I might queue 2 to 5 scouts, a couple of cons and perhaps 5 flashes. After that I might do another few cons and then, after all that, I probably put the lab on repeat with a queue of stumpy/janus/samson/con or thuds/rezzers/con. I also use repeat certain t2 unit combinations and fighterscreens (with the occasional scout/sonar) or ofc for flea spam. Repeat is thus a very useful function, i just don't want it on all the time. Luckily I know how to enable/disable it. A noob does not; with it enabled (and probably also not knowing how to remove a buildqueue) he/she (who am I kidding) will end up getting frustrated by factories that don't do what he wants.

[very_bad_soldier]

No of course not. I queue the units that i want it to make. Like at start I might queue 2 to 5 scouts, a couple of cons and perhaps 5 flashes. After that I might do another few cons and then, after all that, I probably put the lab on repeat with a queue of stumpy/janus/samson/con or thuds/rezzers/con.

Well ok, but how would it hurt to enable repeat also in the first phase when you queue 5 scouts, the cons and the 5 flashes?
While your queue is running there is no difference between repeat on/off. But after the queue is finished your fac would start producing that queue again from the beginning (repeat on) vs. your fac would stop producing at all (repeat off). I would prefer the former, no?
So actually I do not see when it does hurt to put repeat to on.

that pack thing is a neat idea.

I was maintaing such a pack years ago (VbsLuaPack v1-v11) but it sill means that people:
-need to know what widgets are
-that users can download and install custom widgets
-where to download them and what to look for
-how to install them

[BrainDamage]

I know it's not exactly relevant to the topic at hand, but one good thing to know is that if you hold alt while queuing a unit it:
-bypasses repeat and makes only 1 of it
-puts in front of the queue
it's excellent for leaving lab on repeat and queuing single cons or arty as needed or for that emergency unit that you need to save your ass
ofc most ignore this functionality :/

[klapmongool]

No of course not. I queue the units that i want it to make. Like at start I might queue 2 to 5 scouts, a couple of cons and perhaps 5 flashes. After that I might do another few cons and then, after all that, I probably put the lab on repeat with a queue of stumpy/janus/samson/con or thuds/rezzers/con.

Well ok, but how would it hurt to enable repeat also in the first phase when you queue 5 scouts, the cons and the 5 flashes?
While your queue is running there is no difference between repeat on/off. But after the queue is finished your fac would start producing that queue again from the beginning (repeat on) vs. your fac would stop producing at all (repeat off). I would prefer the former, no?
So actually I do not see when it does hurt to put repeat to on.

Because a noob wouldnt not know how to remove units (the scouts, cons and flashes) from a queue. Thus the noob would just not understand why the fuck his lab keeps making shit he already made. Noobtrap.

Why does it hurt to put your lab on repeat in the situations that it is actually handy?

[Google_Frog]

Make tutorial videos.

[Johannes]

Am I the only one who much prefers written manuals to tutorial videos? You don't have to trudge through the whole thing (as most of it probably being stuff you already know) then but can easily just skip to the part you're interested in.

[Google_Frog]

No you're not but it seems to be what the majority of people want.