I came, I saw, I left
Moderator: Moderators
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Play ct, noone is able to grow an ego as no one plays ct
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Well it's not like these "ego" players mentioned in 1st post are any good either :DFLOZi wrote:Play S44, noone is able to grow an ego as Godde keeps everyone downtrodden.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
If the original poster does not respond to this thread in the following week I will lock it, as it will then no longer serve a purpose. I would like to see some productive discussion but that requires active participation on the part of all parties.
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It seems like your problems, NeOmega, are clustered around experiences in individual matches on autohosts. I'd like to explain why these are not uncommon problems.
Individual hosts have their own controllers and rules like dedicated servers for conventional FPS do, community moderators may be granted or denied rights on individual hosts but do not generally moderate specific hosts. This is in contrast to most RTS games, which either have a robust and opaque matchmaking process or allow players to create and host individual matches. Spring permits players to run dedicated hosts, create and host individual matches or request a relay host to create and host individual matches. With each of these methods of hosting multiplayer matches, the initiating player has control.
Moderators can and do respond to problems across hosts when requested. We can and have employed server side solutions to abusive players when they've become a general problem - particularly when autohost maintainers and players from multiple matches have reported them to us. At that point, they have become a community problem and we can exercise the tools open to us to deal with them.
If you would like community moderators to supplement host operators at an autohost level, all you need to do is give individual moderators or the moderator group rights on the host, and inform them of this. For the most part, the active moderation team is willing to assist as long as we have options to match actions. We cannot generally justify a server ban for a single player messing up a single match on an autohost. If individual people are causing problems repeatedly, you need to document this and inform us or the operators of the hosts they play on. We can only act when people bring us evidence.
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Masure, while it may not matter, I'd prefer you did not lie. The problems he describes are not the fault of community moderation, though they could be partially alleviated by giving community moderators more power over hosting.
We do ban "funny trolls" even when they are our "mates". I've warned and banned numerous people, about half of which I've considered "mates" to some extent.
There is a will to link lobby and forum accounts, as well as ladder accounts. There are people considering it actively, but there are very few people able and willing to do all the work necessary. It is not a trivial project to do correctly. Anyway, the people who could are generally busy with as or more important projects, like the engine, or lobby clients, or their own games.
Lastly, while it is true there is no public selection for moderators, they are currently chosen from the candidates you - the community - choose to provide. The last time I looked for new moderators, nobody provided candidates and thus we did not evaluate and add new ones. The time before that we got rid of many of our old staff and pared down a list of maybe forty candidates to five. I saw friends like DaveTheBrave, Licho and NOiZE leave, and added people I seldom spoke with like Google_Frog, Beherith, Baczek and Yokozar. In that case we were working to cover various time zones, and it is true that I've become closer with some of the new moderators since their addition.
~
It seems like your problems, NeOmega, are clustered around experiences in individual matches on autohosts. I'd like to explain why these are not uncommon problems.
Individual hosts have their own controllers and rules like dedicated servers for conventional FPS do, community moderators may be granted or denied rights on individual hosts but do not generally moderate specific hosts. This is in contrast to most RTS games, which either have a robust and opaque matchmaking process or allow players to create and host individual matches. Spring permits players to run dedicated hosts, create and host individual matches or request a relay host to create and host individual matches. With each of these methods of hosting multiplayer matches, the initiating player has control.
Moderators can and do respond to problems across hosts when requested. We can and have employed server side solutions to abusive players when they've become a general problem - particularly when autohost maintainers and players from multiple matches have reported them to us. At that point, they have become a community problem and we can exercise the tools open to us to deal with them.
If you would like community moderators to supplement host operators at an autohost level, all you need to do is give individual moderators or the moderator group rights on the host, and inform them of this. For the most part, the active moderation team is willing to assist as long as we have options to match actions. We cannot generally justify a server ban for a single player messing up a single match on an autohost. If individual people are causing problems repeatedly, you need to document this and inform us or the operators of the hosts they play on. We can only act when people bring us evidence.
~
Masure, while it may not matter, I'd prefer you did not lie. The problems he describes are not the fault of community moderation, though they could be partially alleviated by giving community moderators more power over hosting.
We do ban "funny trolls" even when they are our "mates". I've warned and banned numerous people, about half of which I've considered "mates" to some extent.
There is a will to link lobby and forum accounts, as well as ladder accounts. There are people considering it actively, but there are very few people able and willing to do all the work necessary. It is not a trivial project to do correctly. Anyway, the people who could are generally busy with as or more important projects, like the engine, or lobby clients, or their own games.
Lastly, while it is true there is no public selection for moderators, they are currently chosen from the candidates you - the community - choose to provide. The last time I looked for new moderators, nobody provided candidates and thus we did not evaluate and add new ones. The time before that we got rid of many of our old staff and pared down a list of maybe forty candidates to five. I saw friends like DaveTheBrave, Licho and NOiZE leave, and added people I seldom spoke with like Google_Frog, Beherith, Baczek and Yokozar. In that case we were working to cover various time zones, and it is true that I've become closer with some of the new moderators since their addition.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Pointless raging to make a thread about this... every game is the same; kids raging to each other. Spring isnt even on top of the most asshole gamers list!
Well, i call it evolution... weak players quit because of stuff like this happens... and now all theres left is trolls, smurfs and assholes
I havent played in a year or two, so i cant really say how its these days. IT cant be this bad tho.
Well, i call it evolution... weak players quit because of stuff like this happens... and now all theres left is trolls, smurfs and assholes
I havent played in a year or two, so i cant really say how its these days. IT cant be this bad tho.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
proportions are problem imoTradeMark wrote: Spring isnt even on top of the most asshole gamers list!
for me, something that most ppl would call advantage is springs main problem. its very 'social' (i think its the right word)
in other games u just press one button and play, here, its pressing one button, listen to lot of baw baw, load, listen to baw baw, queue mex, baw baw, loop.
not like there is any solution for this, just saying
Re: I came, I saw, I left
OK, here is what I would propose
A posted code of rules, with strict ban periods for breaking them. A rule plus its ban period, as well as who to contact to report a violation. A new one would refresh in the battle room chat every minute or so, so that nobody could plead ignorance.
All that should be required is a save game with the evidence. Usually the word of 4 or 5 solid good-sport gamers would be enough, so a mod can trust not to even have to look through the save game and search for the infraction.
Com bombing/d-gunning allies gets you one week of bye bye time
scrawling all over the map one week.
Calling a vote to kick/spec newbs on newb servers because they can't play is one week.
"nigger" gets you one week of bye-bye time.
2nd time around is a month.
3rd time around is life.
Also, allow only one account per IP. I know a lot of people have multiple accounts/clan member accounts, but it's not like this is a RP server. Don't let people settle scores or troll with troll accounts.
First infraction is a month, second is bye bye for life, because it is hard to catch.
Secret/multiple account spec cheating/training bye bye for life first time caught. No ifs ands or buts. Cheaters suck, and they are hard to catch.
People are putting their hearts, souls and free time into this project, and it is never going to catch on if assholes are allowed to rule the roost.
How many newbs came by six months ago, got squatted on, and decided it wasn't worth it? I mean, if folk were friendlier, how many more good players would there be today? How many maps beside DSD would be 4 v 4's and such?
Why create something if no-one is around to use it or appreciate it? Is the hundreds or thousands of man hours poured into this project worth the one, maybe two hundred monthly players?
How often do the developers come in and play? I know I was always testing, hardly ever playing when I was modding Civ III. Creation is it's own little passion. Imagine a developer coming onto a server and seeing some excited newb asking a lot of questions getting kicked because he doesn't know how to play. Hey, thanks asshole for making someone disregard my work. Nice way to pay me back for volunteering time for you to have fun. Nobody develops games or mods in the hopes that nobody will play it.
Yeah, there are individual servers, and if they are password protected, of course all bets are off, but for the public servers, just clamp down. Be the merciless tyrants. The internet doesn't always have to be a libertarian paradise of freedom and do-what-you-wantism. Some people can't handle freedom. Those are the people that ruin it for everybody else.
For example, I played over at a little RP NWN2 server called Dasaria for a couple of weeks, and the mods had some pretty strict RP rules. They didn't always clamp down on someone who LoL'd or OMFG'd, but it certainly helped the whole ambiance to have the rules placed and reminders posted during load screens.
And if some people like to troll/be the occasional asshole, then they should be damn sure they are doing it amongst friends, all of the players, not just 2 of them in the game, not just 4 of them in the game. Because ruining just one person's game for shits and giggles is not nice, even if your four friends thought it was funny.
A posted code of rules, with strict ban periods for breaking them. A rule plus its ban period, as well as who to contact to report a violation. A new one would refresh in the battle room chat every minute or so, so that nobody could plead ignorance.
All that should be required is a save game with the evidence. Usually the word of 4 or 5 solid good-sport gamers would be enough, so a mod can trust not to even have to look through the save game and search for the infraction.
Com bombing/d-gunning allies gets you one week of bye bye time
scrawling all over the map one week.
Calling a vote to kick/spec newbs on newb servers because they can't play is one week.
"nigger" gets you one week of bye-bye time.
2nd time around is a month.
3rd time around is life.
Also, allow only one account per IP. I know a lot of people have multiple accounts/clan member accounts, but it's not like this is a RP server. Don't let people settle scores or troll with troll accounts.
First infraction is a month, second is bye bye for life, because it is hard to catch.
Secret/multiple account spec cheating/training bye bye for life first time caught. No ifs ands or buts. Cheaters suck, and they are hard to catch.
People are putting their hearts, souls and free time into this project, and it is never going to catch on if assholes are allowed to rule the roost.
How many newbs came by six months ago, got squatted on, and decided it wasn't worth it? I mean, if folk were friendlier, how many more good players would there be today? How many maps beside DSD would be 4 v 4's and such?
Why create something if no-one is around to use it or appreciate it? Is the hundreds or thousands of man hours poured into this project worth the one, maybe two hundred monthly players?
How often do the developers come in and play? I know I was always testing, hardly ever playing when I was modding Civ III. Creation is it's own little passion. Imagine a developer coming onto a server and seeing some excited newb asking a lot of questions getting kicked because he doesn't know how to play. Hey, thanks asshole for making someone disregard my work. Nice way to pay me back for volunteering time for you to have fun. Nobody develops games or mods in the hopes that nobody will play it.
Yeah, there are individual servers, and if they are password protected, of course all bets are off, but for the public servers, just clamp down. Be the merciless tyrants. The internet doesn't always have to be a libertarian paradise of freedom and do-what-you-wantism. Some people can't handle freedom. Those are the people that ruin it for everybody else.
For example, I played over at a little RP NWN2 server called Dasaria for a couple of weeks, and the mods had some pretty strict RP rules. They didn't always clamp down on someone who LoL'd or OMFG'd, but it certainly helped the whole ambiance to have the rules placed and reminders posted during load screens.
And if some people like to troll/be the occasional asshole, then they should be damn sure they are doing it amongst friends, all of the players, not just 2 of them in the game, not just 4 of them in the game. Because ruining just one person's game for shits and giggles is not nice, even if your four friends thought it was funny.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
trust me i would like to see all of ur suggestions implemented, but it probably wont ever happen :/
just keep creating content, develope own project and join smaller games, experience shows that there is much less faggotry than in 8v8
just keep creating content, develope own project and join smaller games, experience shows that there is much less faggotry than in 8v8
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Give Evo a try 
http://www.evolutionrts.info
http://www.evolutionrts.info
Re: I came, I saw, I left
I whole whole-heartedly agree that good moderation is moderation with clear rules, not moderation from more moderators.A posted code of rules, with strict ban periods for breaking them. A rule plus its ban period, as well as who to contact to report a violation. A new one would refresh in the battle room chat every minute or so, so that nobody could plead ignorance.
Good luck into getting a consensus on the ruleset, though.
BA was not "created" but stolen, and relatively few man hours when poured into it. Spring projects with more work get played less.Why create something if no-one is around to use it or appreciate it? Is the hundreds or thousands of man hours poured into this project worth the one, maybe two hundred monthly players?
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SirArtturi
- Posts: 1164
- Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Hmm. Interesting...
Now that I think, codifying the rules actually would make postmoderation possible. People could be warned/banned by replays and chatlogs.
Now moderation is pretty much up to modifiers ingame time and more over, up to moderators interpretation of rules.
However, cant agree with the rules which noOmega presented.
Maybe Neddie you could launch own thread about the matter where we could discuss possible codified ruleset and new moderator nominees. Let the community to tell who they think could be rightful moderators.
Now that I think, codifying the rules actually would make postmoderation possible. People could be warned/banned by replays and chatlogs.
Now moderation is pretty much up to modifiers ingame time and more over, up to moderators interpretation of rules.
However, cant agree with the rules which noOmega presented.
Maybe Neddie you could launch own thread about the matter where we could discuss possible codified ruleset and new moderator nominees. Let the community to tell who they think could be rightful moderators.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
No,it canonly be done in secret with only one person making the final descision.SirArtturi wrote:Hmm. Interesting...
Now that I think, codifying the rules actually would make postmoderation possible. People could be warned/banned by replays and chatlogs.
Now moderation is pretty much up to modifiers ingame time and more over, up to moderators interpretation of rules.
However, cant agree with the rules which noOmega presented.
Maybe Neddie you could launch own thread about the matter where we could discuss possible codified ruleset and new moderator nominees. Let the community to tell who they think could be rightful moderators.
Right?
Re: I came, I saw, I left
So, your rules would make it possible to ban me from hosting my own games with my own rules, because i like to play that way.
No thanks.
Just stop the crybaby act and get over it... people will always combomb and dgun you, dont play that mod if it sucks so hard you can just win by dgun/combomb... or simply learn to defend from these tactics.
And to people raging at you, just ignore them, their raging shouldnt be interfering your gaming. I find it amusing that when people rage.. actually. If they start insulting me, its even more amusing. But yeah, i agree it gets on nerves... but you get these things ignored automatically when you play enough.
No thanks.
Just stop the crybaby act and get over it... people will always combomb and dgun you, dont play that mod if it sucks so hard you can just win by dgun/combomb... or simply learn to defend from these tactics.
And to people raging at you, just ignore them, their raging shouldnt be interfering your gaming. I find it amusing that when people rage.. actually. If they start insulting me, its even more amusing. But yeah, i agree it gets on nerves... but you get these things ignored automatically when you play enough.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Just stop the crybaby act and get over it... people will always combomb and dgun you, dont play that mod if it sucks so hard you can just win by dgun/combomb... or simply learn to defend from these tactics.
Com bombing/d-gunning allies gets you one week of bye bye time
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Oh, in that case, thats old thing... we already ban those guys
Re: I came, I saw, I left
The ultimate goal is to create a fun experiance yet also allow it to be a deep game and a lot of interesting nuances that are reveled slowly as you start playing better and better.
If an enviornment is created that motivates and makes it easy for people to ruin the game for others than it needs ot be changed to demotivate bad behviour or malicious acts and motivate good gameplay.
If a combomb is real easy to do and can be very effecient and destructive to gameplay than something is wrong iwth the game design.
If an enviornment is created that motivates and makes it easy for people to ruin the game for others than it needs ot be changed to demotivate bad behviour or malicious acts and motivate good gameplay.
If a combomb is real easy to do and can be very effecient and destructive to gameplay than something is wrong iwth the game design.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
rly ? usually it was 'NO NO NO BAD BOI' so ppl stopped reportingTradeMark wrote:Oh, in that case, thats old thing... we already ban those guys
Re: I came, I saw, I left
Don't include my players with the BA dregs please.
Don't act like people being pricks to noobs is unique to spring, I see it in COD, HALO, starcraft, LoL etc. It is just how this generation of 12yr olds act.
Don't act like people being pricks to noobs is unique to spring, I see it in COD, HALO, starcraft, LoL etc. It is just how this generation of 12yr olds act.
Re: I came, I saw, I left
ye, but again, like i said, proportions are problem, games u mentioned got big playerbase. spring is small, so even 2 trolls in one game can ruin it for everyone for a long time
Re: I came, I saw, I left
I've seen NeOmega ingame, he is pretty pro for his rank
but I know that he just plays 8v8 DSD/tabula etc all the time so you cant make much of decision based on that
I'm not saying play other mods like the other people in this thread who are trying to scavenge players for their crappy mods
I'm just saying play 1v1-5v5s more and perhaps join PinK or Fx cuz they always do clan games
also who cares if someone insults u or asks for ur stuff, this is the internet- deal with it
if they comnap u when ur on same team u can get them banned from the autohost or if they do it regularly u can get them banned from spring
but I know that he just plays 8v8 DSD/tabula etc all the time so you cant make much of decision based on that
I'm not saying play other mods like the other people in this thread who are trying to scavenge players for their crappy mods
I'm just saying play 1v1-5v5s more and perhaps join PinK or Fx cuz they always do clan games
also who cares if someone insults u or asks for ur stuff, this is the internet- deal with it
if they comnap u when ur on same team u can get them banned from the autohost or if they do it regularly u can get them banned from spring
Re: I came, I saw, I left
I've taken to siding with the noob/underdog, whenever I see a noob getting bashed in this way, I would defend them. Usually the person bashing the noob is a jerk who isn't focusing on his own game enough, so there's plenty of ways to give him a dose of his own medicine.
There's not really any excuse for being uncivil to someone who is new to the game and just trying to learn. So when I see that, it really gets me to dislike someone quite fast, since it's just immature and unnecessary.
The worst part is that this kind of bashing also goes on in the newbies welcome host, which really should be a safe haven.
Lots of people are just in the habit of being abusive in Spring for fun, it's quite different from say Starcraft 2, where every 1v1 you play would be started with a "glhf" and "u2" then end with "gg".
Spring DSD games begin with "fu" and end in with all-out flame wars, kick votes and general maliciousness on a scale I haven't seen anywhere else since I started gaming really.
There's not really any excuse for being uncivil to someone who is new to the game and just trying to learn. So when I see that, it really gets me to dislike someone quite fast, since it's just immature and unnecessary.
The worst part is that this kind of bashing also goes on in the newbies welcome host, which really should be a safe haven.
Lots of people are just in the habit of being abusive in Spring for fun, it's quite different from say Starcraft 2, where every 1v1 you play would be started with a "glhf" and "u2" then end with "gg".
Spring DSD games begin with "fu" and end in with all-out flame wars, kick votes and general maliciousness on a scale I haven't seen anywhere else since I started gaming really.