branch from cultural center debate

[Gota]

If someone is truly worried about "coercive forces that i am exposed to that alter my perception of reality" just go and read the israeli haaretz newspaper.
In fact go and read any mainstream newspaper and tell me if i am being subjected to some coercive force brainwashing me.All this is of course after we put aside the fact that my most read news source is google news.

If you do not claim that than all we have are 2 different opinions and the only way to settle those is by a discussion that refers to to the arguments each of us makes.

[echoone]

If someone is truly worried about "coercive forces that i am exposed to that alter my perception of reality" just go and read the israeli haaretz newspaper.
In fact go and read any mainstream newspaper and tell me if i am being subjected to some coercive force brainwashing me.All this is of course after we put aside the fact that my most read news source is google news.

If you do not claim that than all we have are 2 different opinions and the only way to settle those is by a discussion that refers to to the arguments each of us makes.

Feel free to provide the imaginary quotes which I said those crazy things. Your glasses are now combining posts from multiple other people and attributing them to me. Your error does not make it so. You're just trolling now.

[Gota]

If someone is truly worried about "coercive forces that i am exposed to that alter my perception of reality" just go and read the israeli haaretz newspaper.
In fact go and read any mainstream newspaper and tell me if i am being subjected to some coercive force brainwashing me.All this is of course after we put aside the fact that my most read news source is google news.

If you do not claim that than all we have are 2 different opinions and the only way to settle those is by a discussion that refers to to the arguments each of us makes.

Feel free to provide the imaginary quotes which I said those crazy things. Your glasses are now combining posts from multiple other people and attributing them to me. Your error does not make it so. You're just trolling now.

I wasnt referring to you specifically i was more reffering to the mass that screams racism and ignorance at basically anything and you did make claims about me having "especially thick glasses".
This is actually more insulting since not only do you claim i am in some way brainwashed but you also elude actually saying it and try to hide behind semantics.
either say you think im brainwashed(of ocurse you cant back it up nor is it a valid argument)or accept we just share different opinions.

[scifi]

All you can do is ramble im brainwahsed

I'm going to clarify something I believe Hoijui was trying to convey. I don't believe the word, "brainwashed", isn't necessarily the best word to use in this discussion.

I believe he was referring to how everyone, filters the world around them based on their own personal experiences. Part of those experiences are gained through direct and indirect interactions with others. Many are unconsciously accepted into one's psyche, and there is little you can do about it. Even if you question everything, which almost no one does, not even close, the chances of something unconsciously slipping into your being is extremely high. Its the classic argument that environmental factors make up part of who you are in surprisingly complex and subtle ways.

This type of reality distortion is something all normal humans experience, with no exceptions. The only difference is, in general, some people distort their perceptions more than others. Sometimes level of distortions are dramatically determined by the topic at hand and the level of emotional attachment one has to a subject. This type of reality distortion is frequently referred to with a cliche as, "wearing rose colored glasses." This is frequently the case when the difference in opinion is based on a difference of perception rather than a difference in facts.

Because of where you live and comments you've made, it suggests to others you might have a strong emotional attachment to the subject matter and as such, is likely impossible for you to remove your "glasses" in these discussions. As such, its likely impossible for you to have an impartial discussion on this subject, no matter how much you personally believe you are doing so. The fact that your rose glasses appear to be exceptionally thick on this subject is the reason I withdrew from the discussion.

You should not view this as a personal failing or a personal attack. After all, you're just experiencing what it is to be human. Something to which I believe we can all identify.

ήΣÎòÎØ

Some things you people are forgeting, leader of these so called terrorist groups, dont order suicidal attacks cause they just want to worship theyr god.

The leaders of these groups coordinate theyr attacks so that they can gain local power, and international broadcast of theyr power.

So
1┬║ islam is an excuse to gain money and suporters.
2┬║ osama bin laden wants power, and recognition
3┬║ Saudi arabia wants to spread and dominate the arab world (as any muslim country leader), same as iran religious leaders.
4┬║ In states that religion is a dominant issue, you forget religion is like a state within a state, its like a corporation.

Corporative behaviour
1┬║ insure everyone obeys
2┬║ create self protective meajures , to insure corporation survival
3┬║ use any means necessary to insure the corporation goals and continued survival

this is the terrorist behaviour analisis.

How do you figth corporativism
1┬║ in the liberalism revolts in europe,(people revolted against absolutist goverments, the role of religion e.t.c....), they wanted change, and they fougth to change the world they lived in.

2┬║ As loong as the west is forseen as an enemy, terrorism wont stop, first the live espectancy and conditions must improve so that the regular demands passes beyond the food-water, and religious worship.
How this is done is by having years of stability and absolutely no caving in to terrorist demands.

3┬║ Giving up our ideals of freedom and religious independance in europe isnt going to help, we acept new people and theyr ways, we also want them to acept ours. People must be lead to see that the progress in the west is due to individual freedom e.t.c......

4┬║ As loong as economic interests prevail in the midle east so does terrorism prevails, perfect escuse to gain popular support against the evil western capitalism.

5┬║ After oil stops being an issue, years with 0 warfare, stability and no caving in people migth and i say migth think in trying to change theyr ways. Muslim people that live in europe when they return to theyr home countrys, themselves would try to alter things for the better.

This is what i gathered from my experience as a human being

[echoone]

and you did make claims about me having "especially thick glasses".
This is actually more insulting since not only do you claim i am in some way brainwashed but you also elude actually saying it and try to hide behind semantics.

You misunderstand. That statements means you're particularly irrational on the subject at hand because you have a horrible failing - you're human! Gasp! That's sarcasm in case you missed it. I never claimed you were brainwashed as that means something entirely different, and frequently has negative connotations associated. I never claimed you were hiding behind semantics. I claimed your argument is not rational and is highly emotional. I claimed based on where you live, that's understandable - being human and all.

My generalized statements in this regard are extremely well founded and certainly nowhere near as inflammatory as saying you are, "brainwashed." Which is, in fact, why I approached it as I did. If you were, "more insulted", by my comments, again, its because you misunderstood or simply chose to be so. Either way, your level of distaste for my comments are entirely of your own creation.

You can disagree all you want, and that's fine, but in this exchange, I've been completely civil and polite. Any injury you feel I've inflicted is likely a distaste for the counter argument rather than any imagined insult you feel I've flung your way.

[PicassoCT]

you defined brainwashed as enviromental influences nobody can completely exclude, and i added to that, that there is aso a way around beeing influenced by your social and political enviroment, and that is having no opinion at all, claiming that this is a very comfortable way of living, always in the attack, having no need to defend once standpoint, and it is what the shouting matches in offtopic always degrade towards. Everybody claims the other guy is brainwashed, yet offers no weakspots in his own opinion towards the opponent.

I agree towards Gota, because my (admittetly, meeting some of them for once or twice a week ) rare experience with muslims overlaps in great parts with his statements. While some of them realy break out of there comunity, venturing new buisness and becoming rolemodells, the majority always stays in little istanbul, and imports there moral codes into western society, to the point that unveiled woman can no longer walk down there hometowns streets, and police fears to enter there quarters.
However, i also do not understand that this miserable circumstances are seen as unchangeable, turning living people into dangerous frozzen automatrons. There must be a weakspot, there is always a weakspot, and once that is cracked.. religion is wrecked.

[echoone]

you defined brainwashed

No, I did not. At this point we have some serious reading comprehension issues and a lack of knowledge of well substantiated brain function. It was ignored. Until you can address your knowledge gap, there is nothing to discuss.

But beyond that, at this point the debate has broken down into "I'm trolling" followed by reasoned responses. This is silly and a complete waste of my time.

If you have something of value to contribute AND can comprehend what I've written AND can properly attribute who said what AND can address your knowledge gaps, then we might be able to have a discussion. At this point I've made an effort to educate you so we can have a discussion and ignorance has prevailed. We'll ignore that this irrational behavior more or less validates my original argument.

And I will add, the questions posed, which are at the heart of the actual, on topic discussion, have yet to be answered.

I'm done.

[PicassoCT]

All you can do is ramble im brainwahsed

I'm going to clarify something I believe Hoijui was trying to convey. I don't believe the word, "brainwashed", isn't necessarily the best word to use in this discussion.

I believe he was referring to how everyone, filters the world around them based on their own personal experiences. Part of those experiences are gained through direct and indirect interactions with others. Many are unconsciously accepted into one's psyche, and there is little you can do about it. Even if you question everything, which almost no one does, not even close, the chances of something unconsciously slipping into your being is extremely high. Its the classic argument that environmental factors make up part of who you are in surprisingly complex and subtle ways.

This type of reality distortion is something all normal humans experience, with no exceptions. The only difference is, in general, some people distort their perceptions more than others. Sometimes level of distortions are dramatically determined by the topic at hand and the level of emotional attachment one has to a subject. This type of reality distortion is frequently referred to with a cliche as, "wearing rose colored glasses." This is frequently the case when the difference in opinion is based on a difference of perception rather than a difference in facts.

Because of where you live and comments you've made, it suggests to others you might have a strong emotional attachment to the subject matter and as such, is likely impossible for you to remove your "glasses" in these discussions. As such, its likely impossible for you to have an impartial discussion on this subject, no matter how much you personally believe you are doing so. The fact that your rose glasses appear to be exceptionally thick on this subject is the reason I withdrew from the discussion.

You should not view this as a personal failing or a personal attack. After all, you're just experiencing what it is to be human. Something to which I believe we can all identify.

ήΣÎòÎØ

Some things you people are forgeting, leader of these so called terrorist groups, dont order suicidal attacks cause they just want to worship theyr god.

The leaders of these groups coordinate theyr attacks so that they can gain local power, and international broadcast of theyr power.

So
1┬║ islam is an excuse to gain money and suporters.
2┬║ osama bin laden wants power, and recognition
3┬║ Saudi arabia wants to spread and dominate the arab world (as any muslim country leader), same as iran religious leaders.
4┬║ In states that religion is a dominant issue, you forget religion is like a state within a state, its like a corporation.

Corporative behaviour
1┬║ insure everyone obeys
2┬║ create self protective meajures , to insure corporation survival
3┬║ use any means necessary to insure the corporation goals and continued survival

this is the terrorist behaviour analisis.

How do you figth corporativism
1┬║ in the liberalism revolts in europe,(people revolted against absolutist goverments, the role of religion e.t.c....), they wanted change, and they fougth to change the world they lived in.

2┬║ As loong as the west is forseen as an enemy, terrorism wont stop, first the live espectancy and conditions must improve so that the regular demands passes beyond the food-water, and religious worship.
How this is done is by having years of stability and absolutely no caving in to terrorist demands.

3┬║ Giving up our ideals of freedom and religious independance in europe isnt going to help, we acept new people and theyr ways, we also want them to acept ours. People must be lead to see that the progress in the west is due to individual freedom e.t.c......

4┬║ As loong as economic interests prevail in the midle east so does terrorism prevails, perfect escuse to gain popular support against the evil western capitalism.

5┬║ After oil stops being an issue, years with 0 warfare, stability and no caving in people migth and i say migth think in trying to change theyr ways. Muslim people that live in europe when they return to theyr home countrys, themselves would try to alter things for the better.

This is what i gathered from my experience as a human being

wow, this sounds like quoted out of a "How we, sucessfully, fought the IRA-textbook." and gains a thumb up for beeing true.

[Gota]

Heh how can you possible know what my personal experience is?
I lived with muslims arabs where i studied(in dorms) just fine since they were intelligent and relatively secular people.
Stop addressing me and relying on your own subjective opinion of who i am instead of my arguments, this is a logical fallacy.

There are all sorts of people living in Israel with just as much range of opinion as anywhere else so dont make it about where i come from or my experience which you know nothing about.

Do not accuse me of trolling since it was you who started making logical fallacies and acting as if they are a good substitute for actual arguments.
not to mention the aura of superiority you have the minute you throw away my arguemnts because "im too emotional about the subject".

I became emotional the minute i was personally attacked not because i me ego is so offended but because its offensive to the discussion.
I like when people make sound logical arguments so some sort of benefit can come out of a discussion or some new opinions or thoughts revealed.


also in my posts i didn't always address you specifically but you did follow hoijuis line of thought.
The answer was partially for you and him.It is hard for me to follow2-3 people attacking me at once especially when those are suddenly attacks on a personal level(if anything that is a true sign of emotion overshadowing reason).

[scifi]

you defined brainwashed as enviromental influences nobody can completely exclude, and i added to that, that there is aso a way around beeing influenced by your social and political enviroment, and that is having no opinion at all, claiming that this is a very comfortable way of living, always in the attack, having no need to defend once standpoint, and it is what the shouting matches in offtopic always degrade towards. Everybody claims the other guy is brainwashed, yet offers no weakspots in his own opinion towards the opponent.

I agree towards Gota, because my (admittetly, meeting some of them for once or twice a week ) rare experience with muslims overlaps in great parts with his statements. While some of them realy break out of there comunity, venturing new buisness and becoming rolemodells, the majority always stays in little istanbul, and imports there moral codes into western society, to the point that unveiled woman can no longer walk down there hometowns streets, and police fears to enter there quarters.
However, i also do not understand that this miserable circumstances are seen as unchangeable, turning living people into dangerous frozzen automatrons. There must be a weakspot, there is always a weakspot, and once that is cracked.. religion is wrecked.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5859613485#

the heart of islam is the belief in the profet, the holy book, meca, to live well be fair to the next and respect each person.

The thing is these symbols and messages have been profoundly changed, and altered.

So its all a mater of people seing the truth, many are being manipulated.

Indonesia is the largest islamic country in the world, and has very little terrorism from islamic people, so problem here isnt islam, is arabic culture.

[KaiserJ]

nuke china!

[echoone]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5859613485#

the heart of islam is the belief in the profet, the holy book, meca, to live well be fair to the next and respect each person.

The thing is these symbols and messages have been profoundly changed, and altered.

So its all a mater of people seing the truth, many are being manipulated.

Indonesia is the largest islamic country in the world, and has very little terrorism from islamic people, so problem here isnt islam, is arabic culture.

We have a winner!!!!

Arabic culture plus extreme poverty, lack of education, plus government sanctioned, anti-western, brainwashing, and generalized western scapegoating, creates these problems. This is not a generalized issue of Islam. Though, clearly, Islam does have some issues which makes it especially susceptible to political manipulation.

Look at Iran. The general population has a higher education than that of America. They are an Islamic country. They are very westernized and typically progressive. Iran's government and clerical hierarchy are clearly the problem - not the majority population as a whole.

What can we surmise from this? Tyrannical governments do bad things. And if religion can be used as a tool for manipulation of the ignorant masses, they will do so - including whatever other tools are available which provide a means to their objective.

[Gota]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5859613485#

the heart of islam is the belief in the profet, the holy book, meca, to live well be fair to the next and respect each person.

The thing is these symbols and messages have been profoundly changed, and altered.

So its all a mater of people seing the truth, many are being manipulated.

Indonesia is the largest islamic country in the world, and has very little terrorism from islamic people, so problem here isnt islam, is arabic culture.

We have a winner!!!!

Arabic culture plus extreme poverty, lack of education, plus government sanctioned, anti-western, brainwashing, and generalized western scapegoating, creates these problems. This is not a generalized issue of Islam. Though, clearly, Islam does have some issues which makes it especially susceptible to political manipulation.

Look at Iran. The general population has a higher education than that of America. They are an Islamic country. They are very westernized and typically progressive. Iran's government and clerical hierarchy are clearly the problem - not the majority population as a whole.

What can we surmise from this? Tyrannical governments do bad things. And if religion can be used as a tool for manipulation of the ignorant masses, they will do so - including whatever other tools are available which provide a means to their objective.

Who in this thread[or the toehr one :)] has ever claimed anything different?

[scifi]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5859613485#

the heart of islam is the belief in the profet, the holy book, meca, to live well be fair to the next and respect each person.

The thing is these symbols and messages have been profoundly changed, and altered.

So its all a mater of people seing the truth, many are being manipulated.

Indonesia is the largest islamic country in the world, and has very little terrorism from islamic people, so problem here isnt islam, is arabic culture.

We have a winner!!!!

Arabic culture plus extreme poverty, lack of education, plus government sanctioned, anti-western, brainwashing, and generalized western scapegoating, creates these problems. This is not a generalized issue of Islam. Though, clearly, Islam does have some issues which makes it especially susceptible to political manipulation.

Look at Iran. The general population has a higher education than that of America. They are an Islamic country. They are very westernized and typically progressive. Iran's government and clerical hierarchy are clearly the problem - not the majority population as a whole.

What can we surmise from this? Tyrannical governments do bad things. And if religion can be used as a tool for manipulation of the ignorant masses, they will do so - including whatever other tools are available which provide a means to their objective.

Religion is a very powerfull tool in the rigth hands, and its the case here, the power of the masses, manipulated by an higher class creates all of this.

Osama bin laden is the son of saudi arabia former king (iirc) he was ritch, it is known that osama used saudi arabias oil as funds to fuel wars of destabilization in indonesia, malasia, Oman even in india, and now in china.

[PicassoCT]

I actually find, that religious people can take any part of there book they like and make that the ruuules, and ignore others who are suddenly "non-cannon" or old-testament, so there preachers and "wise" men can be within speedlimits (dont move to fast from puritanism to wincest) to wherever and whatever moral ground they want. And those peace statments stand for nothing, they are nice decorations, everybody talks of peace, even while just imagining the time after the burrial of once enemys.

So what actually counts is not what is written in the book, but what institutions gain power through the book, and can keep it while transforming the message, and islam has proven repeatetly weak when it comes to that part. Ever heard of a surpreme court, beyond pakistan, that tried to kick a despots ass? No? How come?

[Forboding Angel]

I haven't been paying attention to the thread but it comes down to this...

If someone wants to build a mosque somewhere, if they own the property they can build it. The constitution protects these rights.

The only thing that might be actionable at all is if it were financed by extremist groups (as has been rumored).

Is it despicable and an insult? Yes, very much so. Other than bitch and moan, is there anything that can be done about it? No. It is protected under the constitution (as it should be).

People may feel free to whine, bitch and moan about it but in the end it will get you nowhere. However, under US laws, Christians could come in and worship to their heart's content if they felt like it. You can probably imagine that the Imam's wouldn't like that, but, once again, protected under the constitution, so they can whine bitch and moan all they like about it but... tough shit.

There is always a way to beat someone at their own game.

[Pressure Line]

lol rong thread Forb

[echoone]

The only thing that might be actionable at all is if it were financed by extremist groups (as has been rumored).

I don't know if FOX created this lie or not - they frequently do lie about stuff like this because it helps their ratings and stirs people into a lather.

The people who are behind this have indirect ties to the oval office. Members of their group have been previously asked to represent their religion and to be ambassadors around the world, to spread their moderate and extremely tolerant view of Islam. President Bush was the person who asked them to travel on the US' behalf and their trips were officially funded by US tax payers.

Now suddenly these, "ambassadors of peace and good will", who have specifically been labeled as peaceful and moderates, are rumored to be financed by extremists - despite that its counter to everything they represent. Anyone smell some bold face lies?

[hoijui]

i would consider the bush gov quite extremist though, starting wars and such.
soo.. not too much of a lie.

[echoone]

i would consider the bush gov quite extremist though, starting wars and such.
soo.. not too much of a lie.

Nice troll...