Balanced Annihilation V7.14

[Pxtl]

A huge improvement could be made simply by offering a CA-style comm as an option for 8v8 games. No commboom, no dgun, no megawreck. Leave the OTA-style comm for small games, and use the CA-style comm for big ones.

[Hobo Joe]

Modified dgun limit that expands at half the walking speed of the commander, and the commander doesn't explode on death outside the limit.

I think that would fix most of the problems with the commander in large games without making him completely worthless at defending and pushing.

[Hackfresser]

my 2 cents:
-raiders and stumpies are a bit op (yet underused...)
-tremor is up
-options/changes regarding commanders plz... i like making t1 trans unable to lift them
-merl/diplomat are up
-t2 cons sharing could be nerfed somehow, like making it more expensive
-vanguard a bit op
-exploiters should be a bit stronger since their longer build time costs m. mb make them buildable only on m?

oh yeah, and sea combat is, hm... subs are up... and scout rush is lame. mb add a floating llt? or remove the laser from the scout ships... or give commander a small torpedo launcher

also maybe add an option to make co-building and unit sharing impossible during the first 5 minutes. abusing this is too powerful i think (though hardly anyone ever does it)

[SirArtturi]

Modified dgun limit that expands at half the walking speed of the commander, and the commander doesn't explode on death outside the limit.

I think that would fix most of the problems with the commander in large games without making him completely worthless at defending and pushing.

May fix the problem, but would also make it feel a bit artificial and fake.

I like the XTA commander concept. In XTA commander is more useful as alive because it's very viable in battlefield. Morphed com with a cloak and long dgun range is really useful and tactical unit. The problem in XTA is that it is too viable because the game pace is progressive and units move slow. Therefore the commander becomes a real killing machine that can slaughter entire armies, especially in small maps. (Plus the huge nuke explosion impact)

I'd prefer and rather see a such commander in BA, which has halved comwreck metal from current, way smaller explosion, slightly better hp, slightly longer dgun range, slightly cheaper cloak. This would mean more tactical commander. Not just a heap of metal or a mobile ticking nuke bomb. The role of this commander would be a somekind of sniper that kills heavy, slow, lonely units in battlefield, while having ability to assist assaults and build things. (Problem with high range dgun and small explosion would be sniping other coms though)

CA commander concept is better also, but Imo has the same fundamental flaw, which is that after building the key buildings, the commander is merely useful as a self-d'ed metal wreck.

Comdrops are a great tactic. With the commander concept I represented, It would make this tactic even more viable. With smaller explosion impact using the commander as a flying, remote-controlled nuke wouldn't work but using it to snipe important economy, for example, would make it more worthwile.

Comnapping is compeletely different issue. I can't give very good ideas to fix that. It's very lousy and lame tactic in any kind of game. Arguments for it are just despicable and blatant. And then arguments like "Why don't you get an anti-nap widget noob idiot?!?" "Dont whine It's your problem!" - O sancta simplicitas - are just ways to say you are wrong and im right, while giving an idiotic solution to squirm around the problem and justifying the lame action. Why the hell I should install an external widget for a problem, or a broken game "mechanic," or an "abuse," that could be fixed inside the actual game?

What the hell, I could make any kind of widgets (in theory :)) that either fixes or abuses flaws of the games OR even improves the gameplay itself and then become a "pro" gamer? But then It's me having better tools than you noobie! It's unequal situation. It can be also called cheating. It's like F1 sports: Having a better car than your opponent does not mean you are a better driver...

Oh wait: Make enemy units unnappable? :)

[Gota]

Guess where the commander works exactly as you described.
Also making the commander have a smaller explosion but a longer ranged dgun would mean you'd be able todgun a commander with your own and survive..
This might be a viable gameplay option but there is gonna be a lot ot discontent as commanders get dropped due to ping or in some unlucky situations...

[SirArtturi]

Guess where the commander works exactly as you described.

I know mate, I know...

Your mod however, represents different gameplay than BA and the other mentioned. In general and simply: It is a bit more slow paced and progress differently. Therefore the commander keeps its viability from beginning to the end. At least almost...

Your commander concept seems to be the best so far whatsoever...

Also making the commander have a smaller explosion but a longer ranged dgun would mean you'd be able todgun a commander with your own and survive..
This might be a viable gameplay option but there is gonna be a lot ot discontent as commanders get dropped due to ping or in some unlucky situations...

Yes I mentioned this would be a problem. I can't see how it would be a cool gameplay option. It just would be reckless comhunting then?

[Jazcash]

I wish SA would take a more CA approach towards itself instead of the XTA approach. Just basically BA but faster paced, more fair in terms of combombs, bladewing faggotry and 3-mex-base-tech-porc-nuke-rush-bomb-krogging.

[Gota]

I wish SA would take a more CA approach towards BA instead of the XTA approach. Just basically BA but faster paced, more fair in terms of combombs, bladewing faggotry and 3-mex-base-tech-porc-nuke-rush-bomb-krogging.

I really dont think that BA is slow..I mean maybe in big team games...
I could make a very fast paced TA mod where games would end really fast....Boost up unit speeds production,income,maybe add some armor classes make turn rates really fast...Would be nothing like TA though.
I'd also remove energy converting.
Would have to remove some units,make t2 units work a bit differently..
If i had a proper connection to the lobby i mgith make something experimental and fast paced but meh..

Its really annoying when you cant connect and ask the good devs of spring how to do all sorts of stuff.

[Jazcash]

I wish SA would take a more CA approach towards BA instead of the XTA approach. Just basically BA but faster paced, more fair in terms of combombs, bladewing faggotry and 3-mex-base-tech-porc-nuke-rush-bomb-krogging.

I really dont think that BA is slow..I mean maybe in big team games...
I could make a very fast paced TA mod where games would end really fast....Boost up unit speeds production,income,maybe add some armor classes make turn rates really fast...Would be nothing like TA though.
I'd also remove energy converting.
Would have to remove some units,make t2 units work a bit differently..
If i had a proper connection to the lobby i mgith make something experimental and fast paced but meh..

Its really annoying when you cant connect and ask the good devs of spring how to do all sorts of stuff.

Well, I really like fast paced skillfull games, that's why I played Quake Live for so long. Maybe what I really want is a "micro-mod". A game where the best players win instead of getting beaten by rank 5 players who just follow a memorised queue.

Expansion, good micro and creative tactics should be rewarded instead of being punished.

Maybe the way to go isn't upping the general speed of the game but rather increasing unit turn rates, response times and movement speed or something. I just feel that most games in BA are so linear. It always plays out the same in most cases.

[Pxtl]

Wasn't there an all-tactics mixed-mod game where you got a fixed deployment squad of N units to play with?

[Gota]

I wish SA would take a more CA approach towards BA instead of the XTA approach. Just basically BA but faster paced, more fair in terms of combombs, bladewing faggotry and 3-mex-base-tech-porc-nuke-rush-bomb-krogging.

I really dont think that BA is slow..I mean maybe in big team games...
I could make a very fast paced TA mod where games would end really fast....Boost up unit speeds production,income,maybe add some armor classes make turn rates really fast...Would be nothing like TA though.
I'd also remove energy converting.
Would have to remove some units,make t2 units work a bit differently..
If i had a proper connection to the lobby i mgith make something experimental and fast paced but meh..

Its really annoying when you cant connect and ask the good devs of spring how to do all sorts of stuff.

Well, I really like fast paced skillfull games, that's why I played Quake Live for so long. Maybe what I really want is a "micro-mod". A game where the best players win instead of getting beaten by rank 5 players who just follow a memorised queue.

Expansion, good micro and creative tactics should be rewarded instead of being punished.

Maybe the way to go isn't upping the general speed of the game but rather increasing unit turn rates, response times and movement speed or something. I just feel that most games in BA are so linear. It always plays out the same in most cases.

When you get good in any RTS the amount of viable options usually decreases substantially.

[KaiserJ]

1) return old comwrecks behavior
2) nerf vanguard HP
3) fix amphibious trans <3

then you're done... BA is complete

[JohannesH]

Maybe the way to go isn't upping the general speed of the game but rather increasing unit turn rates, response times and movement speed or something. I just feel that most games in BA are so linear. It always plays out the same in most cases.

Then play something other than dsd and ccr for a change?

[Jazcash]

Maybe the way to go isn't upping the general speed of the game but rather increasing unit turn rates, response times and movement speed or something. I just feel that most games in BA are so linear. It always plays out the same in most cases.

Then play something other than dsd and ccr for a change?

We're talking about BA. Get real.

[beshpin]

1. disable air-labs in the lobby, when hosting your game, if you hate air so much.
2. make a mutator.
3. forget it

Well, it's not so much that air is something I hate, but in general it is much too strong. Air units suck because they are much too fast for how hard it is to destroy them. It should take no more than one to three stationary air turret to take down a constant stream of similar levelled tech.

Think in terms of reality for a moment and recognise how grossly vulnerable a plane is when compared to an entrenched weapon. Air is used much to often to sway battles and this should definitely not be the case. It's so cheap on M, lacking in any tactical strategy at all and requiring so little skill that many players rely on bomb rush to win the first half of the game.

[Regret]

Think in terms of reality

How does the metal get to your constructors from your reserves?

Air is used much to often to sway battles and this should definitely not be the case.

Why should it not be the case?

It's so cheap on M, lacking in any tactical strategy at all and requiring so little skill that many players rely on bomb rush to win the first half of the game.

Do not under any circumstance attempt to judge the tactic which you were beaten by in a game to require no skill, since you were unable to execute it yourself and win the game. It makes you look ignorant.

[Hobo Joe]

Then play something other than dsd and ccr for a change?

We're talking about BA. Get real.

There are a lot of people who would play other maps if you just started a game. Might not be as popular but it makes more sense than you judging an entire game based on the gameplay of two maps with specific player counts and expecting it to be changed just for those. Of course it's going to be similar play that way, the same would be true of any RTS.

It sounds like a lot of people in this thread want BA to be a totally different game. That's not going to happen. Air isn't going to be massively changed, the commander isn't suddenly going to get 10 new shiny toys. Nothing more than small balance changes are going to happen. If you want a different game, there are a lot of things to choose from.

As far as coms, I still think the new dgun limit mod option would fix the abuse in large games.

Comnapping is fine, the com can kill 1 trans standing still before it even reaches him, and if there are multiple trans and he doesn't have AA or isn't paying enough attention to move, he deserves to get napped. It's an RTS, you need to pay attention.


TBH most of the complaints in this thread that are bigger than minor balance changes are things that are only problems in 8v8 games (mega porc nuke/t3 rush[which can and should be countered by the techer on the other team]), or things that are only problems for people who lack the ability to micro or counter(comnapping, bladewing rape, get aa and pay attention). With the exception of naval play BA is very solid and only needs small balance changes, everyone else just sounds like they want it to be a completely different game.



OH and one small suggestion for TFC - The ability to change faction in-game. You can do it as coop but not otherwise, it'd be really nice to be able to change it based on what you think your role in the game will be once it's loaded up and people have placed, rather than just guessing(or forgetting) in the lobby.

[Jazcash]

It sounds like a lot of people in this thread want BA to be a totally different game. That's not going to happen. Air isn't going to be massively changed, the commander isn't suddenly going to get 10 new shiny toys. Nothing more than small balance changes are going to happen. If you want a different game, there are a lot of things to choose from.

As far as coms, I still think the new dgun limit mod option would fix the abuse in large games.

Way to contradict yourself.

TBH most of the complaints in this thread that are bigger than minor balance changes are things that are only problems in 8v8 games (mega porc nuke/t3 rush[which can and should be countered by the techer on the other team]), or things that are only problems for people who lack the ability to micro or counter(comnapping, bladewing rape, get aa and pay attention). With the exception of naval play BA is very solid and only needs small balance changes, everyone else just sounds like they want it to be a completely different game.

Firstly, DSD8v8 is the most popular type of game in history of Spring. To develop BA for 1v1 or small games is just being hopeful. BA should be developed for what people play it for which is usually big team games with lots of tech. That's what the nubs like to see and that's what they'll get. People are obviously not going to stop playing with 16 players on a map designed for 10.

Secondly, micro has nothing to do with Bladewing rape. If you want to play a few 1v1's with me I'll show you how useless micro is vs a couple Blades. Not to mention the crappiness of AA. If you want to win vs Bladewings in early game, you either need AA or fighters. Most AA units are slow as hell and you need at least 10 of them for them to be effective against Bladewings seeing as Blades can EMP most AA units with ease. Not to mention, spamming that AA reduces the mass and effectiveness of your army greatly as you've spent metal on AA units instead of decent fighting units. Fighters require their own lab and some luck that the enemy hasn't made any AA seeing as no amount of fighters can kill a bunch of AA units. Making the fighters also costs more than Bladewings so you're gonna need more metal.

Seriously, Bladewings are OP. No amount of "SHUDDA MAED AA" fixes that.

OH and one small suggestion for TFC - The ability to change faction in-game. You can do it as coop but not otherwise, it'd be really nice to be able to change it based on what you think your role in the game will be once it's loaded up and people have placed, rather than just guessing(or forgetting) in the lobby.

Again, nice "small balance" suggestion there.

[Hobo Joe]

Firstly, DSD8v8 is the most popular type of game in history of Spring. To develop BA for 1v1 or small games is just being hopeful. BA should be developed for what people play it for which is usually big team games with lots of tech. That's what the nubs like to see and that's what they'll get. People are obviously not going to stop playing with 16 players on a map designed for 10.

BA was developed for 1v1 before 8v8DSD became the new big thing. To properly balance the game around that style of play would end up completely changing it, which A) is never going to happen and B)would probably just end up making people move to something else. Even though it would be balanced better, it wouldn't be what they had learned to love.

Secondly, micro has nothing to do with Bladewing rape. If you want to play a few 1v1's with me I'll show you how useless micro is vs a couple Blades. Not to mention the crappiness of AA. If you want to win vs Bladewings in early game, you either need AA or fighters. Most AA units are slow as hell and you need at least 10 of them for them to be effective against Bladewings seeing as Blades can EMP most AA units with ease. Not to mention, spamming that AA reduces the mass and effectiveness of your army greatly as you've spent metal on AA units instead of decent fighting units. Fighters require their own lab and some luck that the enemy hasn't made any AA seeing as no amount of fighters can kill a bunch of AA units. Making the fighters also costs more than Bladewings so you're gonna need more metal.

Seriously, Bladewings are OP. No amount of "SHUDDA MAED AA" fixes that.

Meh, I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. Maybe increase their E and M cost and maybe buildtime slightly. Whenever I see a game completely turned around by bladewings is when the other person didn't counter at all.

Again, nice "small balance" suggestion there.

Lol? It's not a balance suggestion.

[JohannesH]

Firstly, DSD8v8 is the most popular type of game in history of Spring. To develop BA for 1v1 or small games is just being hopeful. BA should be developed for what people play it for which is usually big team games with lots of tech. That's what the nubs like to see and that's what they'll get. People are obviously not going to stop playing with 16 players on a map designed for 10.

That's idiotic. People are playing dsd 8v8 already, and obviously like it too, why would the game need changes tailored for that? Balancing for any pub games doesn't make much sense, with lack of cooperation people use so inefficient builds no matter how the game is balanced. If the game is fine tuned for competitive games, but without big changes, an average 8v8 player will see next to no difference. But will still have something to complain about.

And Jaz, why not try to rape some good players with bwings if they are so great? Why arent you using them every game? Or provide some high level reps that'd prove your point?