Xta unit stats and balance tweaks (input for next version)

[FaerieWithBoots]

I have mentioned this before but i wil do it again because im notsure all ppl realise how important maps are in the balance/gameplay of a mod. If you find the tactics and buildorders lack variety then look for mas where you can deploy multiple strategys.

And tbh, XTA gets so little playtime that it is hard to tell if anything is balanced or not. Probably we havent even found 50% of the imba units/tactics, and also havent found the counter strategys against the current imbalances.

[knorke]

I have mentioned this before but i wil do it again because im notsure all ppl realise how important maps are in the balance/gameplay of a mod.

If you look at the mapping forum, not even the mapmakers have realized that.
Compare that to discussions in starcraft or even C&C mapping forums.

[TheMightyOne]

Most successful games have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. This is hard to learn, hard to master.

yep.

accept it.

[SirArtturi]

I have mentioned this before but i wil do it again because im notsure all ppl realise how important maps are in the balance/gameplay of a mod.

If you look at the mapping forum, not even the mapmakers have realized that.
Compare that to discussions in starcraft or even C&C mapping forums.

Ahem... Could you explain this a bit further and be more specific. I find this in someway offensive and very false without any real proofs or arguments...

What comes to XTA being wrong in something I would definitely say this dgunning a nonmorphed com with morphed com and not getting killed issue. This is biggest reason why I dislike. As also the whole dgunning physics where you need to aim just to your feet to get it right and not die to one flash.
I dont like the terraform of dgun either. at least its too strong. Maps get deformed to ugliness...

[knorke]

ok. look at any maps thread, most comments are about the maps look. if there is talk about balance its usually one-line postings like:
a) "omg no evil typemap plz"
b) "lol needs more/less metal"
c) "zomg put some m in the middle for less porc"

Hardly ever do you see comments refering to games that were actually played. So to me it seems, most of these comments are made by people who have not even played the maps yet.

And the other side you have people discussing 5% hp changes or something, it doesnt fit together.

[babbles]

ok. look at any maps thread, most comments are about the maps look. if there is talk about balance its usually one-line postings like:
a) "omg no evil typemap plz"
b) "lol needs more/less metal"
c) "zomg put some m in the middle for less porc"

Hardly ever do you see comments refering to games that were actually played. So to me it seems, most of these comments are made by people who have not even played the maps yet.

And the other side you have people discussing 5% hp changes or something, it doesnt fit together.

In summary, make more maps like Folsom (the original "final" one).

[SirArtturi]

Hardly ever do you see comments refering to games that were actually played. So to me it seems, most of these comments are made by people who have not even played the maps yet.

And the other side you have people discussing 5% hp changes or something, it doesnt fit together.

Ok. Good points but you cant really make so harsh implications based on these.

Well in that part you are right that most people commenting have not even necessarily played the map, but in the end there will be comments about gameplay and these side of views too(at least for my maps.) The gameplay part of discussion is concentrated on metal income, wind speed etc. because these are actually the most important and the very few 'numerical' aspects of the maps gameplay. Naturally not the same aspects as mods, but comparable.

Let's take smoth's latest map for example. Visually wonderful and alive map with lots of features, designed with care. Problem however was some gameplay aspects (numerical) on which we *A mod players grasped right on... Isn't this discussion about gameplay?

The lack of gameplay discussion of maps doesn't necessarily(and in most cases) mean that the map is designed without any consideration. What comes to design fortunately, many mappers makes their design for certain mod/mods based on the knowledge they have gained playing the mods unlike for most of commercial games.

At least my maps are designed very carefully taking account every edge and angle...

[Tribulex]

only people who are complaining about "dgunning and living" are noobs who dont know how to micro. I recommend mods such as BA and NOTA that dont require as much skill in micromanagement and battle-field reflexes.

[JohannesH]

If the maps thread on the forum doesnt include much gameplay discussion doesnt mean it wasnt discussed or thought out.

When a map is released, what is there left to say? I feel its kinda pointless to request much big changes, I only suggest a change when I feel that theres something with the map that makes it play differently than what it seems to me the mapper intended it to be. Besides positional imbalance there isnt really anything that makes a map objectively bad. Compare to other games with very asymmetrical races, its hard for inexperienced mapper to get that right.

When I see a new map I think to myself how would I play that map, not think of ways it could be "better".

If I want specific gameplay its much more worthwhile to make a whole new concept around that.

[manolo_]

Hardly ever do you see comments refering to games that were actually played. So to me it seems, most of these comments are made by people who have not even played the maps yet.

And the other side you have people discussing 5% hp changes or something, it doesnt fit together.

Ok. Good points but you cant really make so harsh implications based on these.

Well in that part you are right that most people commenting have not even necessarily played the map, but in the end there will be comments about gameplay and these side of views too(at least for my maps.) The gameplay part of discussion is concentrated on metal income, wind speed etc. because these are actually the most important and the very few 'numerical' aspects of the maps gameplay. Naturally not the same aspects as mods, but comparable.

Let's take smoth's latest map for example. Visually wonderful and alive map with lots of features, designed with care. Problem however was some gameplay aspects (numerical) on which we *A mod players grasped right on... Isn't this discussion about gameplay?

The lack of gameplay discussion of maps doesn't necessarily(and in most cases) mean that the map is designed without any consideration. What comes to design fortunately, many mappers makes their design for certain mod/mods based on the knowledge they have gained playing the mods unlike for most of commercial games.

At least my maps are designed very carefully taking account every edge and angle...

sir, i think that it wasnt the intention of floris and/or knorke to attack you or make ur maps bad. they just wanted to point out that the played map is also kept in mind by balancing a mod. and btw yes u make good maps (i like sierra) and we always try to play other/new maps to test them out

[SirArtturi]

In summary, make more maps like Folsom (the original "final" one).

? What is the point ?
? Whats wrong with deluxe version ?

only people who are complaining about "dgunning and living" are noobs who dont know how to micro. I recommend mods such as BA and NOTA that dont require as much skill in micromanagement and battle-field reflexes.

If this is pointed out to my reply, It's totally unrelated statement to the dgun and not get killed issue. Thats exploit. not about skill or micromanagent.

And what comes to BA/NOTA battlefield reflexes and micromanagent can be largely debated. I see that BA needs actually more battlefield reflexes than "slower" mods. Sure XTA is more micromanagement concentrated because of the game pace and unit costs/eco, but that doesnt mean that BA is somehow lacking of micromanagent.

[FaerieWithBoots]

No offense meant to any mapmaker. Only a critical note for ppl who discus modbalance

[SirArtturi]

sir, i think that it wasnt the intention of floris and/or knorke to attack you or make ur maps bad. they just wanted to point out that the played map is also kept in mind by balancing a mod. and btw yes u make good maps (i like sierra) and we always try to play other/new maps to test them out

Indeed It's not and I didnt take it such. I'm trying to defend collectively the map creation for spring. Many maps are designed with huge consideration and the gameplay issues plays big part of the design, maybe even too much (Because pathing issues makes maps quite flat and unnatural usually.)
Imo the statement that gameplay is not discussed is false, but sure It's not same as mod balancing.

[Tribulex]

If this is pointed out to my reply, It's totally unrelated statement to the dgun and not get killed issue. Thats exploit. not about skill or micromanagent.

And what comes to BA/NOTA battlefield reflexes and micromanagent can be largely debated. I see that BA needs actually more battlefield reflexes than "slower" mods. Sure XTA is more micromanagement concentrated because of the game pace and unit costs/eco, but that doesnt mean that BA is somehow lacking of micromanagent.

I have never been dgunned unintentionally. If you do it right, you can prevent it.

BA is just stumpy spam. Right click lab into enemy base, repeat stumpies and cons, reclaim, etc...

[SirArtturi]

I have never been dgunned unintentionally. If you do it right, you can prevent it.

BA is just stumpy spam. Right click lab into enemy base, repeat stumpies and cons, reclaim, etc...

Unintentionally? When I ever have spoke about intentionality? I'm speaking about exploit of comexplosion radius when dgunning enemy com and staying alive after that...
Why do I even bother to speak with you when you don't bother to understand what I'm saying... Discussing with you has been always stupid nonsense..

[Jools]

Most successful games have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. This is hard to learn, hard to master.

yep.

accept it.

Actually, raaar has a good point, but we need to be more specific. If spring is hard to learn not because of complex gameplay, but because of nonintuitive interface, then we are just shooting ourselves in the foot, and that's not so good.

[FaerieWithBoots]

I would agree with you if the interface really was unintuitive. Never had any troubles getting used to the interface coming to spring with an OTA background.

Most XTA's models do justice to their functionality. Fido being the only exception.

Things that bother me in the ui are not related to the gameplay (vollume, display settings)

c'mon this entire thread makes XTA look like it is pile of sh*t, but it is a really great mod lets not forget that .

[manolo_]

c'mon this entire thread makes XTA look like it is pile of sh*t, but it is a really great mod lets not forget that .

thank you

[Jools]

Yes, and remember that the interface has nothing to do with this mod, it's a spring issue.

What i referred to was these things:

* you cannot issue unit orders on minimap, you must instead first click on minimap to go to that location in real map, and then issue orders. If you click on minimap, the unit goes to the location which is under that point in the real map.

* Too much useless information, such as build number of mod when loading game, map coordinates in game, unit hit power in numbers, typemap numbers on main screen...

* If you press b (ota for build menu) you get a ball around all units, if you press c (ota for capture) you get fall into a fps mode. If you press press middle mouse button get a weirdo scroll mode, if you press delete you also get something weird (can't remember since I disabled it). Before you begin playing you must remember to go to the spring options and set the scroll value to a negative number, otherwise you have inverted scroll behaviour in relation to other apps, such as google earth. If you click on a building and accidentally move the mouse pointer before releasing the mouse button, the click effect is cancelled (click should be triggered on mouse_down event instead of mouse_click to be intuitive).

* Left mouse button in general cancels orders, and right button executes them. However, this only applies to the main window. If you instead are in a menu, then left button selects and right cancels.

I could continue, but you get the point I think.

[manolo_]

* you cannot issue unit orders on minimap, you must instead first click on minimap to go to that location in real map, and then issue orders. If you click on minimap, the unit goes to the location which is under that point in the real map.

use iceui

* Too much useless information, such as build number of mod when loading game, map coordinates in game, unit hit power in numbers, typemap numbers on main screen...

true, would be better to see a %-bar

* If you press b (ota for build menu) you get a ball around all units, if you press c (ota for capture) you get fall into a fps mode. If you press press middle mouse button get a weirdo scroll mode, if you press delete you also get something weird (can't remember since I disabled it). Before you begin playing you must remember to go to the spring options and set the scroll value to a negative number, otherwise you have inverted scroll behaviour in relation to other apps, such as google earth. If you click on a building and accidentally move the mouse pointer before releasing the mouse button, the click effect is cancelled (click should be triggered on mouse_down event instead of mouse_click to be intuitive).

spring problem, maybe there should be an option for: OTA-layout while the installing or first setup