Maximum Annihilation V1.0

[Saktoth]

dont go all self righteous here and start belittling other peoples work.

indeed.. we need to stop having forks of BA.. put those balance changes into BA, not have everyone with half a brain going hey I think BA ought to balanced this way, and make a whole mod for it, and then release that and go whee.

What does this mod change, how is it different from BA, if it is different from BA, why doesnt BA adopt these changes if they are good, if they arent good, why were they made..

+1, lets not. >:(

BTW the answer to all those questions is 'because its a different game by a different developer'.

You don't have to write an engine to build a new game design

You couldnt even make starcraft or red alert in Spring, so you are restricted to a very narrow range of the RTS genre (already a narrow genre with a lot of preconceptions). You are correct, but it is a game design within a limited scope. KDR is the only one coming up with really original and unique game designs.

Making a fork of BA with a different design and set of design goals is the same as making a mod for Spring- you're building on someone elses work, just less so in the second case.

Sorry to derail your thread Krogoth but i dont want to see you discouraged by the anti-OTA-mod crowd.

[Argh]

You couldnt even make starcraft or red alert in Spring

Not true. P.U.R.E. has most of the major differentiating features of StarCraft in it (buildings that can move on a UI command, transformers, a tank that sits still to shoot, UI controls that change a Unit's stats), and a few things stolen from Dawn of War (buildings that do not use standard build animations, squad controls). I don't have the fancy UI stuff yet, but I have a lot of the basic gameplay code written.

Moreover, it's clear you haven't played Fibre or KP, which basically follow none of the standard game-design rules of Spring's core.

It's just a matter of time now. Lua changed everything. Don't judge based on what you've already played.

[[Krogoth86]]

Well before making a statement on the recent postings I'd like to ask a mod to split the discussion after my previous posting into a topic of its own...

So now for all the whining about this mod:
Ever since Core Contingency it was my dream to make a TA mod of my own but as I had no Internet I didn't know of things like 3dobuilder, Scriptor and all the other stuff - heck I didn't even know of Uberhack and AA. That were things I found by accident in 2004 or something and I finally got to know about Spring in 2005 or so. I was amazed that there still are so many people who just loved TA and had made amazing additions to it and so I played the back then pretty new BA a lot. But after a year or two of rather intense playing I just like many others came to the conclusion that BA had its little flaws. At this point I want to make a quote:

indeed.. we need to stop having forks of BA.. put those balance changes into BA, not have everyone with half a brain going hey I think BA ought to balanced this way, and make a whole mod for it, and then release that and go whee.

What does this mod change, how is it different from BA, if it is different from BA, why doesnt BA adopt these changes if they are good, if they arent good, why were they made..

Besides that it seems you have totally missed that MA is not another mod like Tired's Supreme Annihilation which "just" juggles around some unit stats but adds entire new strategic options you didn't have in BA and I've to this day not seen in ANY Spring TA mod plus tries to fix some of the not so good design decision of BA (like rather useless KBots), the more important issue of your posting I just quoted is that you seem to have NO IDEA of what's going on with BA...

I mean - your second paragraph is really ridiculous. What does it change? How is it different? Did you read ANYTHING of the initial posting presenting this mod? I guess not - you just read "Maximum Annihilation" and immediately went ahead "Omg - another alphabet mod, it sucks!". FYI there were not few things describing the changes from BA and I promised a video for a detailed insight on this!

The next part gets even more ridiculous:
"why doesnt BA adopt these changes if they are good, if they arent good, why were they made.."
Well at first I was a bit upset after reading this but I now guess you just have no idea of what was going on in the last years / is going on so it's ok. In fact an inital impulse to start making this mod in fact was the decision to keep BA as it is - I still don't really believe you totally missed Sleksa hunting down every suggestion towards BA no matter if good or not. With the most frequent comment "Go make your own mod!" (besides the insults of being a nub) guess what - I actually went ahead and did so!

So you now may understand that I have little understanding in you popping up here and to burden me why I did another mod seperate to BA. You really started your critique at the wrong end (although I can somewhat understand the decision to keep BA as it is)...

So I'll sum all up again. With MA I now have the late self-fulfillment of my dream of an own TA mod which came into existence because of my favorite TA mod being too closed up towards new ideas and at the same time against the correction of some imo (and of a lot of other players') not so good design decisions. As I'm also interested in game development in general (although this probably is my biggest and way most recent project as I did do nothing for a long time) I also followed my passion when creating this...

With that said you now may realize how off the scale many of the things you said are. All this stuff of me wanting this mod to totally outclass BA have its source in your perception of Spring and TA mods but aren't the primary goal of this mod. Well it no doubt would be a cool thing if MA will get a higher popularity than BA but for me it was mostly about the realization of my dream / vision of a "new" TA mod. It's rather obvious that I like MA much more than BA but I did ask you for nothing more than give this a fair chance and maybe find this better too...

Thanks for reading...

Oh - and please stop calling me Krogothe like Noize started doing because it at some point may be too much mix up with KAIK's developer Krogothe...

[[Krogoth86]]

the problem is,that the combat units didn't guard anything before (I looked at that and tried stop too) I tried to let them guard another combat unit (as example let zipper guard sharpshooter) but that didn't work,gives me everytime the line "Command canceled..."

I found the problem - it's the build costs widget. In the next version you'll have an update version inside which doesn't produce this bug. For now press F11 and deactivate the widget (should be the very first in the list)...

[Forboding Angel]

The thing that bugs me is the fact that while whooptie do you are doing your own mod...

All you are doing is pushing numbers around, while you have big huge aspirations, I rather doubt that very many are likely to come about. Keep in mind that FunTA was my project, but I changed it according to how I wanted a game to be, not how I wanted TA to be. Other than models it's nothing like TA.

You as everybody else and wanting to recreate TA in your image (as it were). That's what is /facepalm about it.

You could easily do this as a mutator for BA, and honestly, why aren't you? There is no reason to have 5 megs of bloat when all you are doing is messing with text files. You aren't going to be adding models, textures, etc. Just make it a mut, and then the ppl you want to play it with will only need the latest version of BA and to dl a 1 meg file for your mod.

It makes a lot of sense. Even if you added new models/textures, you are still going to be using the others, so why include stuff in an archive that can easily be used as a dependance?

I'm willing to bet you aren't even going to be using CEG's, much less cegtags. It's just annoying. Would be less so if we could just corral the little offshoots in to one decent place. You going to use any LUA with that? Prolly not any more than including widgets.

Your aspirations may seem lofty to you, but you're going about it in a wasteful manner, which is rather annoying.

p.s. I honestly could care less at this point, but your mod is not going to be the Next AA or BA, so if that's what you're goign for, you might as well forget it.

Edit: Before you get smart about FunTA, it was based off of Bota, which far fewer people have, which is why it is not in mutator form.

[[Krogoth86]]

@Forboding Angel:
You just showed you've not spent a single second on informing yourself for a single second about this or actually read anything in this thread.

You could easily do this as a mutator for BA, and honestly, why aren't you? There is no reason to have 5 megs of bloat when all you are doing is messing with text files. You aren't going to be adding models, textures, etc. Just make it a mut, and then the ppl you want to play it with will only need the latest version of BA and to dl a 1 meg file for your mod.

It makes a lot of sense. Even if you added new models/textures, you are still going to be using the others, so why include stuff in an archive that can easily be used as a dependance?

WFT was that?
This is NOT something like Supreme Annihilation where there just is a new balance! There is no "even IF you added new models/textures". I actually DID use new models (and I'm not speaking of Unit Universe although some stuff is from there too (why redo something when you have something decent looking present?)) and imo not few of em (and way more are still to come).

I'm willing to bet you aren't even going to be using CEG's, much less cegtags. It's just annoying. Would be less so if we could just corral the little offshoots in to one decent place. You going to use any LUA with that? Prolly not any more than including widgets.

WTF again! I'm using lots of advanced CEGs and cegtrails. Pretty much every unit now has a real firing FX instead of the standard explosion done via "show emitpoint" in COB which like 80% of BA's units have (even although there are some nice firing FX in it like for the Goliath or Bulldog they get used only on few units even if units like the Shiva actually use the same weapon). With that said you'll find the BA effects actually wider used plus there are some new. It may be true that most of them just are modifications from FX taken out of CA or XTA but hell - I'm just a single person and no team. I now just can promise you that there'll be lots of own stuff coming with the Krogoth...

p.s. I honestly could care less at this point, but your mod is not going to be the Next AA or BA, so if that's what you're goign for, you might as well forget it.

100% ignorance about my 2nd last posting here...

So Forboding sorry but don't bash something you have totally no knowledge of except that you've heard someone saying it's something like BA...

Well I guess all I can do now is
/facepalm

[Forboding Angel]

Hey, you asked. Dunno why you're talking to me like that. I was just informing you of common consensus. I could care less what you do.

Btw, it's Angel

[Fanger]

MA is not another mod like Tired's Supreme Annihilation which "just" juggles around some unit stats but adds entire new strategic options you didn't have in BA and I've to this day not seen in ANY Spring TA mod

New strategic options you havent seen in any other mod, Like what?

[[Krogoth86]]

Hey, you asked. Dunno why you're talking to me like that.

Sorry but that has a simple reason. I did ask because I didn't know if I should take that / facepalm /stab /stab /stab as an insult or not. To speak the truth I still don't really know but it's not important to me anymore because well how to say it - you "just let your pants down"...

I don't mind someone not liking TA mods and I don't mind someone not liking my mod. But I really don't like if someone joins the discussion and tells me I should stop feeling and acting like the king of mods because I completed the tremendous task of changing numerical values in text files and insulting me by calling me a little offshot that has to corraled to the others (whoever that may be). So after being insulted for no apparent reason it gets even better:

It's not going to stay with personal attacks only but you also made a fool of yourself as you made 100% clear you have no idea of MA at all. Every single thing you suppose or even bet not to ever happen already have become reality. I have the feeling you just wanted to sound smart by joining the faction of TA mods naysayers but you totally failed as you didn't read anything written in this thread.

Sorry but seriously if you want to criticize my work that's ok and I even want that. But I mean if you don't even know the most basic things that this mod is about please inform yourself and if you don't want to inform yourself then please don't post insulting and bashing postings.

Btw, it's Angel

Yeah - sorry for this typo. I did an edit and fixed that...

New strategic options you havent seen in any other mod, Like what?

You may of course prove me wrong but to give some examples:
I've never ever seen things like All-Terrain-Transports, Crawling Bomb Deployment, Artillery Siege Deployment, Shield Piercing Shells but maybe most important having all tactical options for each factions in a Spring TA mod. There probably are some more I can't think of right now but there are some more in the making...

EDIT:
Small fix in the last paragraph...

[Saktoth]

You as everybody else and wanting to recreate TA in your image (as it were).

Did you read his post? Firstly it uses all 3 tiers, splitting a lot of the t2 stuff (nukes, berthas etc) onto a t3 con. Its geared much more towards a scaling tech tree, team games, and late game. This isnt just TA. Secondly he is doing the no-assist-lab thing, which is very non-TA and is just like FunTA actually. Even if he made a mutator it would have to reference a specific version of BA, which would quickly go out of date (bitch to the BA devs if you like- but its pointless).

Krogoth, i suggest you dont bother arguing here anymore, they've destroyed any useful purpose this thread could fill for you to get feedback on your project and learn anything from feedback- other than that this community is full of hostile elitists. They arent going to back down and say 'Hey, okay, we'll let you do your thing and learn how to mod- here are some tips to help you along.' any time soon, though maybe a mod will clean this up per your request.

For my part id be glad to offer feedback if you awnt it, though you seem to be figuring out most of this stuff yourself pretty fast.

P.U.R.E. has most of the major differentiating features of StarCraft

Im sorry, but some of the features of starcraft are:
Economy: Harvester-style based around an expensive central starting base and equally expansive expansions. A third resource as a population cap. Finite resources.
Tech Tree: An almost one-unit-per building scaling tech tree with specific unit upgrades.
Production: Completely fac based unit production, harvester based building production.
Tactical/Strategic: No move-and-fire, limitation to max unit selection.

Almost all of the above would require heavy lua- transforming units have little to do with the basic game design, they are more features than core design elements.

Moreover, it's clear you haven't played Fibre or KP, which basically follow none of the standard game-design rules of Spring's core.

KDR is the only one coming up with really original and unique game designs.

Admittedly, Nanoblobs was pretty unique- just a pitty you never managed to get the unit spam down to a level where the game was playable (Its major problem was just cpu lag IMO).

[j5mello]

Jeez i can't believe this crap...


First off i doubt Krogth86 is trying to be the NEXT BIG THING because thats nigh impossible to do here. He is making his interpretation of TA/BA while getting in some modding practice, no reason to jump on him.

Forb congrats on not even bothering to play the mod before bashing it (and for someone who didn't care, you sure did soapbox it up).

Fang did you even play it yet? Cause if your basing your BAWWING off either no info or my tiny review over TT, then you're just as bad as Forb

Smoth while you didn't bitch that much, your POV is pretty clear when it comes to *A mods so it really doesn't need to be reiterated here in the thread.

Really all three of you have way better things to do than post here so, i beg of you, just move on.

As to the mod; like the additions you made though NEEDS MORE SEA STUFF!!! esp that the lvl 3/4 shipyard be buildable by the lvl 2 sea con. having to go thru the commander is a pain.

Also I would agree with Saktoth about the whole kbot-heal thing. The out of combat heal really favors a hit and run system so that you can strike, get out combat/heal any damage, repeat.
Are bots the only units with autoheal?? i wasn't paying much attention to other units... I would assume not since that makes it a moot idea.

Also the all terrain transports are terribly slow making them easy targets for, well anything that can reach em... i suggest giving em stealth and upping their speed to atleast that of the all terrain combat unit for their side (arm = rocket spider, core = termite).

[[Krogoth86]]

For my part id be glad to offer feedback if you awnt it, though you seem to be figuring out most of this stuff yourself pretty fast.

Thanks - I'd appreciate your feedback...

As to the mod; like the additions you made though NEEDS MORE SEA STUFF!!! esp that the lvl 3/4 shipyard be buildable by the lvl 2 sea con. having to go thru the commander is a pain.

I agree - T3 sea needs more stuff and as you can see in the little roadmap thingy I gave in the inital posting that's going to be the next part I'll work on although as I'm now going for a rather quick release of V1.1 mostly as a bugfix release you won't see much of this in the upcoming version - despite a T3 Underwater Antinuke maybe...

Concerning your shipyard comment: I didn't quite understand what you want to say. You get the T3 Shipyard via a Level 2 Sub-Constructor or by having reached T3 on land and morphing your Com because as Combat Commander he can build all the T3 Labs...

Also I would agree with Saktoth about the whole kbot-heal thing. The out of combat heal really favors a hit and run system so that you can strike, get out combat/heal any damage, repeat.
Are bots the only units with autoheal?? i wasn't paying much attention to other units... I would assume not since that makes it a moot idea.

Hmmm - well my experience is that on the one side the regeneration starts too slow and is too slow for this tactic to really be successful (if there is a Nanotower or two which repair the defenses or whatever you're attacking you'll have a nullified effect as both sides will be at full strength again). In addition to that there are some other factors like mines and plasma artillery which work against this...

Bots aren't the only units with "autoheal" - every unit and building ingame has this but it turns on after a very long period and only has a 5 HP/sec ratio...

Also the all terrain transports are terribly slow making them easy targets for, well anything that can reach em... i suggest giving em stealth and upping their speed to atleast that of the all terrain combat unit for their side (arm = rocket spider, core = termite).

Well imo making the transports so fast would be kinda annoying as even now you can be attacked from any direction because of what you have to pay way more attention. The transports now being fast like hell would make them OP and annoying...

[smoth]

Smoth while you didn't bitch that much, your POV is pretty clear when it comes to *A mods so it really doesn't need to be reiterated here in the thread.

LOL, yup, which is why I don't bother any more. No one listens.

[Iz3]

Very good mod.

imo :
- adv. wind generator and light fusion need to be smaller
- water version of plasma shield and nano would be useful
- adv. hover make naval games more interressing, this is really new !
- nuclear mine is missing
- buildicons : nice work

Some balances must be find ingame, I hope your mod comes moar popular to test it out


ps : airmail unit is my favorite, did you make it ?

[smoth]

saktoth, check your pms, I am displeased with your railing on me and would prefer you and I to discuss it in private where it will not derail the thread.

[smoth]

even so, if BA is supposed to be solid, when are they going to do a development freeze so people can go and make mutators?

clarification for those who SNAPPED AT ME, BA should according to it's devs be near perfect, a mutator is a small file which is easy to download and can contain modifications and additions. This was not meant to be rude. Hell, a mutator, if the ba guys so chose could be included with BA, then with ONE DOWNLOAD I could have MANY mods, rather then multiple copies of the same content over and over.

IT would make downloads faster for players because of reduced redundant content and the players would like this.

[Pxtl]

even so, if BA is supposed to be solid, when are they going to do a development freeze so people can go and make mutators?

clarification for those who SNAPPED AT ME, BA should according to it's devs be near perfect, a mutator is a small file which is easy to download and can contain modifications and additions. This was not meant to be rude. Hell, a mutator, if the ba guys so chose could be included with BA, then with ONE DOWNLOAD I could have MANY mods, rather then multiple copies of the same content over and over.

IT would make downloads faster for players because of reduced redundant content and the players would like this.

Several problems with that.

First, they still release new versions of BA. By bundling the BA content into your mod, you avoid having to update your dependancies with each BA release.

Second, there are two possible filenames for BA - the release version, and the installer version. Sure, they have the same hashes, but the filenames are what's used by Spring for dependancies.

Third, the mutator naming thingy doesn't work in TASClient or the main exe. So you still have to have a bunch of differently-named mods cluttering up your mod list.

[smoth]

First, they still release new versions of BA. By bundling the BA content into your mod, you avoid having to update your dependancies with each BA release.

The ba core file can still be named the same. I am moving to a base file in the next release of gundam. It will be GundamRTS and any mutators specific to gundam will be done with mod options. Meaning other people making mutators for gundam will be more plausible(although still discouraged because I am not done). BA can do the same since the relevant version info in stored in mod.tdf

Second, there are two possible filenames for BA - the release version, and the installer version. Sure, they have the same hashes, but the filenames are what's used by Spring for dependancies.

yes, perhaps the installer version should only be called BA with special note made in mod info to denote it as an installer version. Separately named files are moot at this point in spring.

Third, the mutator naming thingy doesn't work in TASClient or the main exe. So you still have to have a bunch of differently-named mods cluttering up your mod list.

The mutator naming thing-e? are you referring to the gundam mod options? Yeah, kdr fixed that already. I just have not bothered to upload the new version. Otherwise you WOULD want the mutators showing up as their own deal. MA would be a mutator of BA... and if BA used a single named file as it's core it wouldn't be an issue.

[The_Big_Boss]

u know, i like the name MA. But you might as well call it Maximum Annihilation Extremed-ed. Just bridge to MAXed, youll get more hits.

[Saktoth]

Smoth, i wasnt talking to you but to Rattle, Spiked and Fang who were being flat out rude.

For your mutator idea, make this comment in the BA thread. Of course, you'll be ignored since the BA devs are not concerned over such things but here is not the place to criticize them.