Let's remove groupAI feature from Spring

[smoth]

I like group ai's and I respect your work bighead but I have to say no I do not want it removed on default. Now if it was I wouldn't care but honestly I don't want it removed.

Also, I would like it if meltrax's iceui was the defaul ui.

[Sheekel]

Bighead, I bolded your name because you bolded everyone elses name. I'm sorry I misunderstood, i thought it was your way of communicating and i figured my point would be better directed.

No need to get so worked up.

[MetalSkin]

Well I'm not sure exactly which button is being talked about without looking at the AI (which is hard while at work). However I presume it is the AI button that lets you do things like:

* Add the AI to a radar that tells you when something new comes into sensor range
* Upgrade mex option with group area button added for lvl 2 cons
* MM e management AI assigned to manage mm's.

Now for the first two, I suspect I only use the AI button and not the group AI button. Not sure what the advantage of using the group one vs the non group one. Obviously for MM there is an advantage as all you have to do is add new mm's to the group to include it in the AI.

Now I don't know why Group AI is dead, maybe because people are not interested in developing group related AI. However I do like the above three AI's that I have listed and find them all useful (however now that I use lua, which I recently discovered, I've tend to left it to the lua mm e management widget instead of using the ai, haven't noticed any differences).

So for me I voted to keep it. However I do believe in removing clutter and keeping a UI clean, buttons kept only because we have always had them is no reason to keep them. however if people do use the feature then maybe best to keep em. I do like the idea of Lua replacing them though. Maybe the Lua F11 tool to select widgets will need to be enhanced, but lua to me seems more flexible.

[Sleksa]

You don't stop doing something becouse of one little annoyance.
However if there are many little annoyances that's something different.
Spring is very confusing for a new player. Hiding groupAIs by default for new players is just a little step towards making Spring more newbie-friendly.

oh my, someone in this thread already answered this question.

Go fuck yourself.

Hiding groupAIs by default has nothing to do with making spring more newbie friendly. The things that drive new people away is that you have to manually download and install maps and mods, which for newbies means like 15 mins work to get into game, or possibly even more now that unknown files is a mess.

Everyone i know has learned to use groupAi just by clicking and looking what it does.
If you were unable to accomplish this, it is not the game's fault but yours alone and you are a bad player trying to blame the game instead of finding out what you yourself have done wrong. I want it to stay there since i have uses for it and i do not wish it to be hidden by default, a option that can be selected in the options menu to show or disable groupAI's that is toggled to show by default im ok with, but most definately not automatically hidden.

[Snipawolf]

He means have an option in the settings box, where you can SHOW or HIDE the damned box called "groupAI"

By means of choosing not to show, there would be no check, and to show it, there would be a check...

[Quanto042]

Quanto's 0.02$

TBH, Kloot was right. I rarely hear new people complain about the interface (beyond it looking too ugly and non-shiney). Their biggest complaints have always been with the things that kloot mentioned, and i think they should be given the most attention. And LUA isn't the way to go for fixing them. Most of those fixes need to be done from within the engine.

Now, i'm not a programmer, so i can't exactly run along and MAEK PATCH, however i would love to. But, seeing as how i'm a multimedia student and not a computer science student, I don't real have the skill sets required to make such a patch.

[Forboding Angel]

Facts:
- GroupAI functionality will still be in Spring. It will only be hidden by default. If you're l33t player, you'll be able to enable it.
- However you wouldn't want to do that becouse the only groupAI everyone ever use - mex upgrader will be implemented by a new button for builders that can upgrade mexes.

I am completely against this. Removing groupai's would be a horrible thing to do. You may not realize it, but groupai's are in many ways much more powerful than lua (in a different way of course). However, remember the fact that groupai's can easily reach out and directly touch the engine.


Has everyone forgotten the set of must have groupai's that AF used to (and I wish he still did) maintain? Those things were the shit. Anyone remember the radarai? THat groupai is one of the best things since sliced bread.

I'll see groupai functionality removed when hell freezes over my beautiful lifeless body.

[Forboding Angel]

Added for clarity:

I meant visibly removing them. Seriously, removing them is a really bad idea. A better way of going about it would be to put a more intuitive button on the menu. Hell, using Bighead's widget I was planning to have a help section concerning them.

Meh, they have direct engine access. Don't discard them so readily. In the right creative hands they can be a very powerful tool.

[BigHead]

[AF]

aside from the mex upgrader AI solutiosn currently employed failing hopelessly to counter in the essential tricks needed such as always offsetting the mex and building mexes north east to any other mex were possible, a lua version would be necessary anyway since only a lua version can check for unit morphs, whereas a groupAI can't (hint hint)

[trepan]

AF appears to be wrong again with respect to the current AI / LuaRules
interface. the AICallback interface provides the following call:

Code: Select all

const vector<CommandDescription>* CAICallback::GetUnitCommands(int unitid)

If you know the custom morph command ID, or you search by name,
AIs can find morph commands. Note that unless the LuaRules script
provides a custom function to report custom commands, the rest of the
lua scripts would have to resort to the same trick.

[Felix the Cat]

That's nice.

But how is it better than the GroupAI?

If we had a separate UI button for everything I could possibly want from a GroupAI, we'd be playing UI:Spring as there would be no playing field.

[BigHead]

But how is it better than the GroupAI?

+ Auto upgrade button
- SelectAI button

Instead of
-> ->
I think the name "UI:Spring" suits the middle button well

I also plan to make AutoHelp ON/OFF for nano turrets:
+ AutoHelp ON/OFF
- SelectAI button
- Manevuer button
- Repeat button
- Patrol button
- Guard button (right click will still work)

Good night.

[Forboding Angel]

Your starting to worry me.

You planning on making a button for each groupai? Like radar AI?

THe maneuver/roam/hold pos, and all the other buttons have a very definate use

For example, Units in EE fail without hold position enabled. Not everyone knows the hotkeys dude. This is potentially very bad. Moreso, I'm worried that in future widgets you'll force this upon us. That would be a crying shame.

/me is unhappy

[BigHead]

Why do I need to post everything at least twice in this thread. Please read what others write before posting.

I also plan to make AutoHelp ON/OFF for nano turrets

and we're talking about gadgets - modder can decide what gadgets he'll include into his mod and unlike widgets he can modify them to suit his mod.

Edit: 54 posts this thread has could be shrinked into maybe 5 relevant.

[Felix the Cat]

Why do I need to post everything at least twice in this thread. Please read what others write before posting.

I also plan to make AutoHelp ON/OFF for nano turrets

and we're talking about gadgets - modder can decide what gadgets he'll include into his mod and unlike widgets he can modify them to suit his mod.

Edit: 54 posts this thread has could be shrinked into maybe 5 relevant.

This is a classic case of saying something and then whining when people disagree.

[TheRegisteredOne]

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

I rest my case.

my joined date is 10 Dec 2005, yours is 22 Nov 2006. Thus, your arguments automatically hold less weight than mine!

[Neddie]

I'm weighing the value of cleaning up this thread, lads.

[Sheekel]

Arguments aside, it's a poll for a reason and it shows obvious approval for keeping the groupAI.

[ScarySquirrel]

I believe this thread addresses an important point. Having a checkbox for the GroupAIs would help out many people, myself included, who crashed their games several times before they figured out that GroupAIs are sometimes not a good idea.

The more options we have disabled by default, the more we allow a user to advance gradually in his understanding of how to play Spring, as opposed to overwhelming him with options in the game.

Disabling certain options more likely to cause bugs than others prima facie would help make this game more accessible, but just like the "Advanced" button in Windows, would allow other users, like myself, , to enjoy its finer points.

So, in conclusion, to all of us who desire advanced options, make sure not to clamor for them as part of the initial installation, lest we risk alienating our lifeblood, the n00bs.

P. S. Even if the change suggested here does not go through, it pleases me to see that someone's taking an interest in making the game "Easy" for beginners.