How do you stop LUA that cheats?

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 15 Jun 2007, 21:15

gamer17 wrote:LOL
why are talking about this, 99% of the games being hosted aren't comm ends anyway

I have never seen anyone give all of there units away like that before

Alot of high end games are still comm ends. Just because you don't play in that environment doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Don't act unnecessarily ignorant.

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 15 Jun 2007, 22:24

imbaczek wrote:APM != skill. live with that.

I BELIEVE THIS WHEN I SEE 20 X 60 APM PLAYERS WINNING 3 MATCHES AGAINST 20 X 200+ APM PLAYERS

THE FACT IS THAT BEING A GOOD PLAYER REQUIRES SOME SPEED,

TORTOISES MAY WIN SOME RACES AGAINST RABBITS IN CHILDREN'S STORYBOOKS, BUT IN THE END THE CHEETAH WILL EAT THEM BOTH

APM IS PRETTY MUCH ON PAR WITH A PLAYER'S SKILL LEVEL.

LIVE WITH THAT

Kthxbai /thread <3

*edit*

I personally consider every item that gives the other player some sort of advantage a hack. LUA UI is a perfect example of this.

IIRC krogothe once made some code/script bits to make commanders D-gun vamps from sky, I have no problem with a player doing that, but just hitting a few settings and then going to make coffee while waiting for the game to end is not playing anymore

TheRegisteredOne · Post by **TheRegisteredOne** » 15 Jun 2007, 22:31

det wrote:Don't even get me started zwzsg! OTA understood the concept of skilled micro. Painted Desert was a pro map. If you couldn't click on 3 rocks per second, you were a newbie and should be playing Crash Bandicoot or something. Spring has turned it into newbie paradise. Any lamer can area-reclaim the whole friggin' map! Then there is giving orders to partially constructed factories/units. HELLO? More of this skill-less "set it and forget it" Spring newbie philosophy. What am I supposed to be doing with my extra time? FPSing my commander? Well, actually, I have to hand it to the SYs with FPS mode. This was a true innovation. It is just too bad that they left it as a gimmick instead of taking it to its logical conclusion. Imagine what a pro game this would be if you had to FPS all of your units! No more sitting back watching the computer play the game for me. I am in the cockpit or the unit is just idling. In retrospect, I expected nothing less from the SYs. After all, they are the hacker group that released a set of cheats for OTA allowing you do things like build whole lines of tidals in a couple clicks. I could probably rant on for pages! LuaUI is just the beginning! I fully expect Spring to be a screensaver within 2 years.

is this a parody post?

gamer17 · Post by **gamer17** » 15 Jun 2007, 22:37

TheRegisteredOne wrote:
det wrote:Don't even get me started zwzsg! OTA understood the concept of skilled micro. Painted Desert was a pro map. If you couldn't click on 3 rocks per second, you were a newbie and should be playing Crash Bandicoot or something. Spring has turned it into newbie paradise. Any lamer can area-reclaim the whole friggin' map! Then there is giving orders to partially constructed factories/units. HELLO? More of this skill-less "set it and forget it" Spring newbie philosophy. What am I supposed to be doing with my extra time? FPSing my commander? Well, actually, I have to hand it to the SYs with FPS mode. This was a true innovation. It is just too bad that they left it as a gimmick instead of taking it to its logical conclusion. Imagine what a pro game this would be if you had to FPS all of your units! No more sitting back watching the computer play the game for me. I am in the cockpit or the unit is just idling. In retrospect, I expected nothing less from the SYs. After all, they are the hacker group that released a set of cheats for OTA allowing you do things like build whole lines of tidals in a couple clicks. I could probably rant on for pages! LuaUI is just the beginning! I fully expect Spring to be a screensaver within 2 years.
is this a parody post?

No, he is for real

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 15 Jun 2007, 23:00

Skill in a real time strategy game is made up of a number of factors, not the least of which is speed. However, speed of action is not the only important factor, and I am frankly tired of people asserting that they correlate closely. They do not necessarily do so. Isaac can still beat me in a one versus one, though I tend to have twice or thrice the APM.

APM is pretty much one indicator in a sea of many.

I have been concerned with possible abuse and unfair advantage since I joined the community, but I've observed little enough abuse of Group AI and, until recently, seen no reason to press the point on LUA. What are the possible solutions?

I. Implement an approval system for widgets controlled by the host.
II. Implement an approval system for widgets controlled by the central server and a master list.
III. Limit the abilities of LUA.
IV. Continue With An Honour System.

Post by **trepan** » 15 Jun 2007, 23:16

Once again, .nohelp has been implemented for 0.75.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 15 Jun 2007, 23:34

trepan wrote:Once again, .nohelp has been implemented for 0.75.

Sorry trepan, I forgot about that. Thank you.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 16 Jun 2007, 00:37

As platformers go, crash bandicoot is a pretty action intensive title...

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 16 Jun 2007, 00:39

SwiftSpear wrote:As platformers go, crash bandicoot is a pretty action intensive title...

Well, at least the early ones. For their time.

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 16 Jun 2007, 01:55

Lua widgets would probably best be restricted on a script-by-script basis by the host, with a master list maintained somewhere by someone for ease of use.

gamer17 wrote:
TheRegisteredOne wrote:
det wrote:Don't even get me started zwzsg! OTA understood the concept of skilled micro. Painted Desert was a pro map. If you couldn't click on 3 rocks per second, you were a newbie and should be playing Crash Bandicoot or something. Spring has turned it into newbie paradise. Any lamer can area-reclaim the whole friggin' map! Then there is giving orders to partially constructed factories/units. HELLO? More of this skill-less "set it and forget it" Spring newbie philosophy. What am I supposed to be doing with my extra time? FPSing my commander? Well, actually, I have to hand it to the SYs with FPS mode. This was a true innovation. It is just too bad that they left it as a gimmick instead of taking it to its logical conclusion. Imagine what a pro game this would be if you had to FPS all of your units! No more sitting back watching the computer play the game for me. I am in the cockpit or the unit is just idling. In retrospect, I expected nothing less from the SYs. After all, they are the hacker group that released a set of cheats for OTA allowing you do things like build whole lines of tidals in a couple clicks. I could probably rant on for pages! LuaUI is just the beginning! I fully expect Spring to be a screensaver within 2 years.
is this a parody post?
No, he is for real

Are you for real?

Sleksa · Post by **Sleksa** » 16 Jun 2007, 02:00

neddiedrow wrote:Skill in a real time strategy game is made up of a number of factors, not the least of which is speed. However, speed of action is not the only important factor, and I am frankly tired of people asserting that they correlate closely. They do not necessarily do so. Isaac can still beat me in a one versus one, though I tend to have twice or thrice the APM.

APM is pretty much one indicator in a sea of many.

I HAVE NOT SEEN A PLAYER WHO PROGRESSES IN SKILL LEVEL BUT STAYS THE SAME ON HIS APM LEVELS

IT IS GOOD THAT YOU HAVE A HIGH APM BUT HACKING THAT CTRL+C 60 TIMES IN A MINUTE DOES NOT REALLY WORK YOUR WAY UP TO THE YOU WIN SCREEN, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG, PLEASE CHECK UP THE REPLAYS TO SEE WHAT YOUR MISSING IN YOUR GAMEPLAY.

THERE ARE A FEW FUNDAMENTAL THINGS THAT JUST REQUIRE THAT APM

1)MICRO
2)MACRO
3)HANDLING 1&2 AT A SAME TIME

AND IMHO MICRO MACRO AND MULTITASKING HAVE MAJOR ROLES ON A PLAYER'S SKILL LEVEL

YOU CAN DENY IT ALL YOU WANT AND TRY BRINGING SOME FAKE STATISTICS UP, BUT A PLAYER PROGRESSES GRADUALLY, AND SPEED IS ONE FACTOR OUT OF THOSE THAT CAN EASILY BE MEASURED.

IF IT ISNT APM WHAT SHOULD WE BE VALUING?

STRATEGIES? WOW BILLY YOU MADE A GOOD STRATEGY BUT YOU JUST DIDNT HAVE TIME TO IMPLEMENT IT WHEN JACK DROVE 50 GATOR TRUCKS TO SHOOT DOWN YOUR COMMANDER, BUT YOUR STRATEGY WAS WAY MORE SOPHISTICATED THAN JACKS SO YOUR THE REAL PRO HERE.(FEELS LIKE SPECIAL OLYMPICS (YAY YOURE SPECIAL \:d/))

*EDIT* I DONT PERSONALLY MIND SEEING PEOPLE HACK A GAME THAT LACKS A PROPER LADDER SYSTEM FOR THE TIME BEING, ITS LIKE HACKING YOUR SIMS BECAUSE ITS TOO HARD TO PLAY. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO THAT KIND OF STUFF AND ITS TAKING THE FUN OUT OF THE GAME, POST ABOUT IT ON THE OFF TOPIC/GAME LOBBY FORUM SECTION AND WE'LL BLACKLIST THOSE PEOPLE <3

BUT IF THERE IS EVER GOING TO BE A BUILT-IN LADDER SYSTEM (HINT HINT BETALORD), THE LUA UI AND THE CUSTOM AI SYSTEMS SHOULD IMHO BE REMOVED ATLEAST FROM THE LADDER MATCHES TO CREATE EVEN RESOURCES TO WIN FOR BOTH PLAYERS.

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 16 Jun 2007, 02:22

Capslock: cruise control for cool.

TradeMark · Post by **TradeMark** » 16 Jun 2007, 02:50

What does APM mean?

Actions Per Minute?

Well, i would say if APM rate is high, you are bad player in TASpring...

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 16 Jun 2007, 03:04

Sleksa speak the truth.

Look at starcraft, it's EXACTLY the same game for everyone. You can't change resolution, not the hotkeys, no UI mods, NOTHING. If we are talking serious competition, this is simply a must.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 16 Jun 2007, 04:10

Somebody had to bring up Starcraft. Again.

The competitive nature doesn't matter if it is a simple, dull game. It is a simple, dull game. I know, I played it for years, I own two copies, and I probably peaked in three-digit APM. It isn't a golden standard of anything with value. Competition has no inherent value. It is a benchmark, a notable title in a long timeline of notable titles - but notability is relative. for me it doesn't mean much - for you it might be the most important thing in your life. The difference between us is that I recognize the status of some of what I say as opinion, and you do not apply the same judgment to your own words.

Somebody had to patronize me. Again.

APM is one, minute detail. One detail. If you're going to treat it as the whole ball of wax; a complex collection of factors in which it isn't even the most important, particularly in this engine, then you aren't being rational. If you're going to attack me on top of it, I have few enough words left for you at this time.

Ishach · Post by **Ishach** » 16 Jun 2007, 04:35

Ive seen plenty of games where the player with double the cmds of the other still loses

You need high apm to be good

High apm dosent make you good

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 16 Jun 2007, 05:03

You need high APM so you can polish your ego.

Fixed.

jackalope · Post by **jackalope** » 16 Jun 2007, 06:22

I found most good players either have either 40-60 apm or like 120-200 apm. One is not necessarily better than the other. I haven't checked recently but I think Demo is usually around 60 and he's really good.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 16 Jun 2007, 08:27

There's a tonne of features in spring that allow a player to use less APM more efficiently. Order queues, repeat orders, area effect commands, and just general strategy. If you choose not to use these for whatever reason you can rack up tonnes more APM then you acctually need to use. However, if you pull back and use the features effectively, but also ramp up your APM while doing it you become a much much more effective player.

Irrelevant of what kind of player you are, if you ramp your APM up through normal play your in game effectiveness will improve. But there are lots of ways to waste actions on irrelevant commands in spring.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 16 Jun 2007, 08:35

My APM depends greatly on the mod and situation, I've won matches in Kernel Panic with an APM of 10 simply because there isn't much to order. When I'm building up I'm giving much fewer orders than when I'm e.g. trying to move a dom in a random pattern to minimize hits from an epic com or just managing a char.

Spring RTS Engine

How do you stop LUA that cheats?