How to fail @ Spring

[LordMatt]

Well noize, kbots are very slightly cheaper than sea, but sea is more difficult for a couple of reasons:
1) Con ships cost 250 metal each, whereas con bots cost 100 metal. If you are rushing hovers you can't really afford to build more than two con ships (if that) whereas three con bots don't set you back much.
2) Ships can only build the floating hoverlab, which can't be set on land somewhere out of range of the shore, thus you have to worry about defense while you are teching to hover, which costs ~300 metal for a torpedo or depthcharge launcher should you choose to build it (a corvette is even more expensive at 375 metal).

Thus, teching to hover with kbots usually ends up being a little faster, as you end up with more metal left over to spam out a quick attack force.

[NOiZE]

i see, however in the long run you have advantages there as the economy is cheaper on sea.... tidals/floating metalmakers. And about the conship price, remember it has way more buildpower then a conbot, so you need less conships

[LordMatt]

Well, for expansion numbers are more important than buildpower early (mex don't cost very much or take much time to build, as you know ). Once you have the hover lab up you are going to be making hover cons as your main construction unit. You don't actually keep either the shipyard or the kbot lab around, as you need to reclaim this metal for part of the hover lab or your first attack force.

[Neddie]

Com rushers take the fun out of a short game.

Translation: "I don't know how to counter a com rush"

Please, quote the right person, Matt.

I've been using hovers a lot, ever since I joined the community. Some of my first arguments over AA were about the efficacy of anti-air hovers, in fact. There was a three-month period when I confined myself to Sea and Vehicle play, my least favourite tech trees (I have my highest win ratio with Vehicles and my lowest with Sea) - but of late I've gravitated back to hover, air and kbot use.

Actually, I love using hovers on Charlie in the Hills. Hilarious... nobody expects them, and you can pretty much punk out of both lakes.

Tidals are not as efficent as everybody seems to believe. On a number of maps, Wind serves better. Oh, and why not simply use your Commander to build those pesky Floating Metal Makers? Works like a charm.

Hovercraft, in many situations, can be used to avoid the long run entirely. In the short term, and mid game; Kbots to Hovers is generally superior. Late game, of course, if you've managed to hold on to the sea this entire time, your Ships will come into their own.

[Saktoth]

Taking sea mexes with hovers from a sea player isnt hard. Just place the mex further towards the upper left (north-west) than his mex. The upper-left-most mex is always the one that gets the metal. I assume not many people know this, though. Failing that, sonar and reclaim.

Sea to hovers is fail for one main reason. If he goes sea, he can attack you while you spend your econ going hovers. Much easier to avoid his scout boat rush until you have hovers, which will murder anything on the sea.

Tidals are only better than solars if the tidal rate is about 16, so maps like SSB (15) it is much better to go wind or adv solars and get your com/hovers to build you floating MM's. Either way, its not like you are going to get a serious MM economy going before you reclaim your lab and go hovers, so this is sorta moot.

Ive seen hover rushes defeated on larger maps using a FHLT porc and a quick tech for cruisers but thats about all.

[jellyman]

Com rushers take the fun out of a short game.

Translation: "I don't know how to counter a com rush"

Well besides being an incorrect quotation, you have jumped to an incorrect conclusion. I think I am reasonably proficient at countering com rushes. Although I could probably be better.

I think com rushers take the fun out of team games. That is because the com rush is generally a high risk 'winner takes all' type of strategy. You join a team game of 4 vs 4. You are just finished the initial build que and the first minor skirmish. And someone on the map decides that com rush was the way to start. Most times the success or failure of this com rush decides the fate of the game. So whether I'm on the winning side or the losing side, I am dissapointed that I have had no chance to contribute to deciding the fate of the game.

In a 1 vs 1 game, I would not consider com rushes to be much of an issue. I would be confident that 90% of the time I would benefit from an opponent using such a tactic. And if I lose well its much the same as any other loss that I don't enjoy, but can hopefully learn from.

[LordMatt]

Probably the comrusher is the better player, and that's why his success or failure determines the outcome in the game. On a lot of maps, com rushing = the loss in 1v1.

[Ishach]

Its a win or lose tactic because the commander is such a valuable and powerful piece.

A failed com push exposes your side to attack and a successful one breaks the enemies push, doing it successfully is usually as much your opponents poor planning as it is your skill

[Neddie]

I generally say it is usually his poor planning that makes the difference.

[jellyman]

^^ And in what way do any of the last three posts adress my point that com rushing in a team game makes it less fun for most of the players?

The com rusher and the one or maybe two who have the chance to counter the com rush get to exercise skill to influence the result of the game. Everyone else in the game is turned from participant to spectator.

[LordMatt]

Good players make something happen in any game they play in. If you feel like you aren't influencing the outcomes of games, step up your level of play. Think of novel ways to win that the enemy isn't expecting instead of doing the same stuff over and over. At least the comrusher is trying to win, instead of trying not to lose...

[DemO]

Wait. You're whining because people are BETTER than you so win the game for their team, since you are not good enough to influence the outcome of the game?

Well geez...what the hell do you expect to happen if you're not any good at the game. If anything its a reason to get better. And modders certainly aint gonna nullify their mods so skill is not such a prominent factor in gameplay.

Comm rushing is a way to put pressure on the opponent and expand aggressively for territory, usually in team games. Of course the skilled players will comm rush where it is beneficial. If you can't survive more than 10 mins to an agressive comm rushing opponent, then clearly you have to re-evaluate how you should play against these people. You dont HAVE to comm rush to beat a comm rush on most maps, so whatever you're doing, you aint doing it good enough.

[Tim-the-maniac]

people want funs games pros suck

[jellyman]

Can't I express a frustration without it being whining? If I'm whining about com rushers then everyone else is whining about someone who thinks that com rushing is not fun and dared to state that.

So why is it that if I make a simple statement that com rushing is not fun, half a dozen people aggressively point out how I am wrong. But I can also state that porcing is more annoying than com rushing. And no one ever said that I needed more skill so I can beat the porcers.

And if I am whining, I will whine about the responses I am receiving on this thread.

I express a belief that com rushing spoils the fun of a game and is frustrating. And am told 'you are saying that because you lack the skill'

I have a reasonable amount of skill to counter com rushing, and was saying it for a totally different reason; So what can you expect me to do but defend my reputation and state more clearly why I don't like com rushing.

And then three people totally ignore my point and talk about issues around the skill to counter it.

So I basically repeat my argument again in frustration that no one is really paying attention to what I'm saying.

And now finally I am told that if I want to influence the game I just need to have more skills. So at least I know people are understanding some of what I am saying (maybe I'm only carrying on like this because its all just the troll in me that wants some attention lol).

But how much skill do I have to have before I can express an opinion that something is not fun without being told that if I was more skilled I wouldn't have a problem? Maybe you guys can whip me badly and repeatedly 1 vs 1. (I remember such an experience but am not sure if it was against Lionheart or LordMatt). But I have a few hundred hours experience and am quite confident that I can beat the majority (i.e. more than half and probably less than 90%) of players on spring. Is spring only supposed to be fun if you've played it for more than 800 hours and can beat 98% of the players on the lobby perhpas?

[Ishach]

Good players make something happen in any game they play in. If you feel like you aren't influencing the outcomes of games, step up your level of play. Think of novel ways to win that the enemy isn't expecting instead of doing the same stuff over and over. At least the comrusher is trying to win, instead of trying not to lose...

I spose you still think lifting your com in an atlas and putting him somewhere close to the enemy is the bees knees.

Yeah join those team games and show the starnoobs how to play the game, you are a genius of tactics and strategy.

[Machiosabre]

Good players make something happen in any game they play in. If you feel like you aren't influencing the outcomes of games, step up your level of play. Think of novel ways to win that the enemy isn't expecting instead of doing the same stuff over and over. At least the comrusher is trying to win, instead of trying not to lose...

I spose you still think lifting your com in an atlas and putting him somewhere close to the enemy is the bees knees.

Yeah join those team games and show the starnoobs how to play the game, you are a genius of tactics and strategy.

and another one of matts barrelfish is shot!

but yeah some decent comrushing is alright, but when someone thinks it's a good idea to decide the games outcome in the first minute it's generally not fun.

[Lolsquad_Steven]

Ussually compush is boring because the player being compushed plays boringly, counter them with an even riskyer tactic, for example if you went kbots build some fleas to keep in their radar range not los, reclaim your lab, and either build slashers or go for a drop and take control of their base(players ussually sacrifice a good economy/defence/army for more land), just remember the victor isn't the winner, but the dood everyones talking about after the game, ya hear?

[DemO]

Saying you don't like comm rushing isn't an argument. You are implying that something should be done to stop comm rushing in games?

In that case all I can say is host more sim base games of your own with some 2 stripe buddies that would like to play that way.

[LordMatt]

Good players make something happen in any game they play in. If you feel like you aren't influencing the outcomes of games, step up your level of play. Think of novel ways to win that the enemy isn't expecting instead of doing the same stuff over and over. At least the comrusher is trying to win, instead of trying not to lose...

I spose you still think lifting your com in an atlas and putting him somewhere close to the enemy is the bees knees.

Yeah join those team games and show the starnoobs how to play the game, you are a genius of tactics and strategy.

YA CUZ THATS TEH ONLEH WAY TO WIN GAMEZ KREATIVELEH

[LordMatt]

Complaining about how other people play the game directs your attention away from what it should be, which is improving your own game and having fun. You can't control how others are going to play (unless you make silly rules), but if someone uses the same strat over and over again, it just makes it easier to beat them. When your opponent plays predictably that puts you in control of the outcome of the game. Make the right moves and you will win, and chances are there is more than one way to win.