AATA Beta 0.9
Moderator: Moderators
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
I really like the idea of making metal far more rare than it is in AA and other mods. It focuses players on better unit control and usage, rather than just hurling masses of units at each other.
But I agree that a whole new system is necessary.
And remember, metal is "Command Points". You may as well get into the jingo
But I agree that a whole new system is necessary.
And remember, metal is "Command Points". You may as well get into the jingo
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
I go away for a week and a half and you all take out tanks. Go figure. You've also allowed this thread to reach page 2 of the Mods topics... for shame!
Anyways, Flint and I had a game yesterday. Hamburger Hill is not ideal for infantry and light vehicles (it's tank and artillery country), but the game was interesting nonetheless.
Some things I noticed:
-Infantry sounds are STILL broken.
-The SdKfz 250/9 and 251/1 (Light Support and Transport halftracks) kill flags. They probably shouldn't.
-The Greyhound... it's better but still a little bit unbalanced. The problem is not in the gun/armor stats, it's in the speed. When moving it's nearly impossible to hit with any projectile weapons, and everything that can kill it with ease is a projectile weapon. Maybe turn down the speed a little bit or turn up the speed of AT weapons (Panzerschreck/Panzerfaust mainly).
-German Infantry Abteilung Pioner's buildpic is wrong, it has the "O. Todt" conscript labor picture (Organization Todt was one of the German labor services).
Have you guys done anything more with my tank balancing?
Anyways, Flint and I had a game yesterday. Hamburger Hill is not ideal for infantry and light vehicles (it's tank and artillery country), but the game was interesting nonetheless.
Some things I noticed:
-Infantry sounds are STILL broken.
-The SdKfz 250/9 and 251/1 (Light Support and Transport halftracks) kill flags. They probably shouldn't.
-The Greyhound... it's better but still a little bit unbalanced. The problem is not in the gun/armor stats, it's in the speed. When moving it's nearly impossible to hit with any projectile weapons, and everything that can kill it with ease is a projectile weapon. Maybe turn down the speed a little bit or turn up the speed of AT weapons (Panzerschreck/Panzerfaust mainly).
-German Infantry Abteilung Pioner's buildpic is wrong, it has the "O. Todt" conscript labor picture (Organization Todt was one of the German labor services).
Have you guys done anything more with my tank balancing?
I'll look into the infantry sounds (were they broken in 0.9b1.8?)
They certainly shouldn't, Nemo is fixing the 250/9... didn't realise there was an issue with the 251 too.
I thought the Greyhound was quite balanced... the 20mm on the 250/9 oblieterates them even at speed, although i want to cut the accuracy and traverse rate of that anyway. They should perhaps be a little slower.
That's because it is the labourer unit, as it can build the fortifications.
Nope. we were waiting for you to get back.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Don't do anything to the Greyhound yet... they were, for all intents and purposes, the best unit in the game at the time. Once we get guns, tanks etc. in, they should be easier to kill.
Again, though, my main concern is the speed of the Greyhound.
I found that the 251/1 made an excellent flag raiding unit, once I figured out that it killed them. It's already good for flag raiding because it carries infantry - but in this case, you don't even need the infantry!
Again, though, my main concern is the speed of the Greyhound.
I found that the 251/1 made an excellent flag raiding unit, once I figured out that it killed them. It's already good for flag raiding because it carries infantry - but in this case, you don't even need the infantry!
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Looking at tank speeds... eventually (read: later today or tomorrow) I'll include vehicles as well.
Most of the German tanks/AGs have a speed of 1.6. That means everything from the PzKpfW III to the Panther. TDs are generally faster.
American tanks are faster than the German tanks.
I think that we should 1) make German tanks' speeds different, and 2) emphasize the speed difference between German and American tanks as one of the key differences between the two sides - the old speed vs. firepower paradigm. No idea how Reds and Brits would fit in there, don't know tank speeds offhand.
Why make German tank speeds different from one another? Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure the speeds of PzIII/PzIV/PzV were different from one another. On the battlefield, you don't want one tank going 45 and another going 30; the faster one either won't be able to use its speed fully or will become cut off from the slower ones. Hence why the Germans separated tank types at the regiment level: late war, one regiment of a theoretical fully equipped panzer division would be Panthers, and one would be PzIVs. If they were to be intermixed at the small-unit level, their different speeds would be a liability.
Making the tanks' speeds different would give the player this (realistic) consideration. If you have 20 PzIIIs, 15 PzIVs, and 10 Panthers to attack with, your attack will be much stronger if you can use all of them at once. However, if you simply throw a big, mixed group in there, your PzIIIs will get there before the PzIVs, which will get there before the Panthers. Your attack will be less powerful than if it had been executed all at once. Instead, you have to micro your groups and keep them together.
On the American side, I would propose having the M3/M5 Stuart, M24 Chaffee, and plain vanilla M4A1 Sherman be able to outrun any German tank or TD (which, incidentally, they already do). Heavier Sherman variants would be slower than some of the lighter German tanks - the way I have it set up on paper is that the two upgunned Shermans (76 and 105) can be caught by Marders (fastest German TD), and the Sherman Jumbo is within the speed envelope of most German tanks.
This got me to idly thinking about AAS's design. Currently, we are (theoretically) planning to release AAS with the Germans, Americans, Soviets, and British all fully functional. Regardless of how realistic a goal this may be, perhaps we should go in stages and focus completely on each individual product? Here is how I would set it up:
1) AAS 1.0 -- This includes Germans and Americans - basically a rebuild of our "original" AATA port for Spring.
2) AAS 2.0 -- Adding in the Soviets and British. Save some pretty effects for here too - snow maps and snow model sets for Germans and Soviets? Desert maps and corresponding model sets for Germans and British? (Someone remind me; are environmental model sets possible yet?)
3) Axis and Allies At Sea -- Add in the sea portion, from landing craft and Sherman DDs to battleships and aircraft carriers. Special sea maps.
4) AAS: War in the Pacific -- Add in Japanese, US (Marines?), Chinese. Island-hopping, yay. Tropical maps and kamikaze planes.
5) AAS 3.0 -- 'Final Version' with whatever minor powers we might want to throw in for chrome/scenarios/campaigns: possibilities include Finland, Italy, Romania, Canada, Australia, Free France/Vichy France/France.
Ambitious? Certainly, but it's in doable chunks. Plus, we can develop along with the Spring engine - new Spring engine features can be implemented into the next release, so we don't end up being antiquated when Spring 1.37 with dynamic lighting and native support for true urban maps comes along.
Yay, that was a lot of writing. And now I'm out of cheap Taco Bell burritos. Damn. See what AAS has put me through?!?
Most of the German tanks/AGs have a speed of 1.6. That means everything from the PzKpfW III to the Panther. TDs are generally faster.
American tanks are faster than the German tanks.
I think that we should 1) make German tanks' speeds different, and 2) emphasize the speed difference between German and American tanks as one of the key differences between the two sides - the old speed vs. firepower paradigm. No idea how Reds and Brits would fit in there, don't know tank speeds offhand.
Why make German tank speeds different from one another? Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure the speeds of PzIII/PzIV/PzV were different from one another. On the battlefield, you don't want one tank going 45 and another going 30; the faster one either won't be able to use its speed fully or will become cut off from the slower ones. Hence why the Germans separated tank types at the regiment level: late war, one regiment of a theoretical fully equipped panzer division would be Panthers, and one would be PzIVs. If they were to be intermixed at the small-unit level, their different speeds would be a liability.
Making the tanks' speeds different would give the player this (realistic) consideration. If you have 20 PzIIIs, 15 PzIVs, and 10 Panthers to attack with, your attack will be much stronger if you can use all of them at once. However, if you simply throw a big, mixed group in there, your PzIIIs will get there before the PzIVs, which will get there before the Panthers. Your attack will be less powerful than if it had been executed all at once. Instead, you have to micro your groups and keep them together.
On the American side, I would propose having the M3/M5 Stuart, M24 Chaffee, and plain vanilla M4A1 Sherman be able to outrun any German tank or TD (which, incidentally, they already do). Heavier Sherman variants would be slower than some of the lighter German tanks - the way I have it set up on paper is that the two upgunned Shermans (76 and 105) can be caught by Marders (fastest German TD), and the Sherman Jumbo is within the speed envelope of most German tanks.
This got me to idly thinking about AAS's design. Currently, we are (theoretically) planning to release AAS with the Germans, Americans, Soviets, and British all fully functional. Regardless of how realistic a goal this may be, perhaps we should go in stages and focus completely on each individual product? Here is how I would set it up:
1) AAS 1.0 -- This includes Germans and Americans - basically a rebuild of our "original" AATA port for Spring.
2) AAS 2.0 -- Adding in the Soviets and British. Save some pretty effects for here too - snow maps and snow model sets for Germans and Soviets? Desert maps and corresponding model sets for Germans and British? (Someone remind me; are environmental model sets possible yet?)
3) Axis and Allies At Sea -- Add in the sea portion, from landing craft and Sherman DDs to battleships and aircraft carriers. Special sea maps.
4) AAS: War in the Pacific -- Add in Japanese, US (Marines?), Chinese. Island-hopping, yay. Tropical maps and kamikaze planes.
5) AAS 3.0 -- 'Final Version' with whatever minor powers we might want to throw in for chrome/scenarios/campaigns: possibilities include Finland, Italy, Romania, Canada, Australia, Free France/Vichy France/France.
Ambitious? Certainly, but it's in doable chunks. Plus, we can develop along with the Spring engine - new Spring engine features can be implemented into the next release, so we don't end up being antiquated when Spring 1.37 with dynamic lighting and native support for true urban maps comes along.
Yay, that was a lot of writing. And now I'm out of cheap Taco Bell burritos. Damn. See what AAS has put me through?!?
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Had another thought on movement speeds for tanks, this time for turn speeds.
Forgive me if this is terribly obvious, but since we don't have side-specific damage, low turret rotate and unit rotate speeds can be a "flanking penalty". I'm sure it's already this way, but I'm not entirely sure that it's been looked at this way - as a way to introduce flanking into the game, rather than simply as yet another number to try to deduce from technical data.
It also occured to me that tanks with higher instances of mechanical trouble (i.e. Tigers) should have lower speeds to simulate having to stop every day or two and get repairs.
Forgive me if this is terribly obvious, but since we don't have side-specific damage, low turret rotate and unit rotate speeds can be a "flanking penalty". I'm sure it's already this way, but I'm not entirely sure that it's been looked at this way - as a way to introduce flanking into the game, rather than simply as yet another number to try to deduce from technical data.
It also occured to me that tanks with higher instances of mechanical trouble (i.e. Tigers) should have lower speeds to simulate having to stop every day or two and get repairs.
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
As I joked to Floz, if the demo has only infantry and a few light vehicles, we can call it "No Man's Land" and pretend it's my WW1 mod!
edit. OH MAI, I almost forgot. German engineers produce resources, to the tune of 5 command each. Once I figured that out it completely unbalanced my game against Floz. Of course, by the time I figured it out I was sort of screwed anyways...
edit. OH MAI, I almost forgot. German engineers produce resources, to the tune of 5 command each. Once I figured that out it completely unbalanced my game against Floz. Of course, by the time I figured it out I was sort of screwed anyways...
The fact that they are bulletprrof doesn't help, either.
Turret traverse speeds should reflect real life. As should movement speeds... I had a javascript script in a webpage somewhere that calculated the units MaxVelocity based on km/h or mph... Though that was based on the TA F1 'm/s' statistic.
I think instead of moving slower, unreliable vehicles should drain more logistics to move. imo it should be
weight in 1000Kg * reliability modifier
Turret traverse speeds should reflect real life. As should movement speeds... I had a javascript script in a webpage somewhere that calculated the units MaxVelocity based on km/h or mph... Though that was based on the TA F1 'm/s' statistic.
I think instead of moving slower, unreliable vehicles should drain more logistics to move. imo it should be
weight in 1000Kg * reliability modifier
Heh, german engineers have been de-Superman'd.
If you guys could throw your replays up somewhere, I'd really like to watch them, as it would be rather helpful for spotting bugs and working on balance.
Edit: Proper vehicle speeds and turret traverse rates would be great. I left them alone since I thought they were already calculated somehow. Which stat should be used for that though? I figure that there's no way a jeep would be able to get up to its max speed on a road (~60 mph) in any kind of battlefield setting (probably limited to more like 25 mph, if that), and it might be hard finding a statistic for "jeep speed over battlefield terrain" or something along those lines.
The nice part is that once we get to doing A&A maps, the terrain type speed modifiers will let us make roads that are actually *worth* something =)
If you guys could throw your replays up somewhere, I'd really like to watch them, as it would be rather helpful for spotting bugs and working on balance.
Edit: Proper vehicle speeds and turret traverse rates would be great. I left them alone since I thought they were already calculated somehow. Which stat should be used for that though? I figure that there's no way a jeep would be able to get up to its max speed on a road (~60 mph) in any kind of battlefield setting (probably limited to more like 25 mph, if that), and it might be hard finding a statistic for "jeep speed over battlefield terrain" or something along those lines.
The nice part is that once we get to doing A&A maps, the terrain type speed modifiers will let us make roads that are actually *worth* something =)
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Vastly differentiated movement speeds between terrain types currently make pathfinding sort of wierd... see Road to War.
I've assembled a chart of max speeds of various German and US vehicles. I'll work on mapping it to in-game movement speeds, probably using an exponential function to exaggerate the differences while maintaining the relative order of vehicles by speed constant. Note that wheeled vehicles should have lower speeds relative to their maximums than tracked ones: maximum speed for a wheeled vehicle is on a clear, straight, paved road, not a camel path through the desert or through a wheat field in Russia. Tracked vehicles are inherently all-terrain, so they maintain something close to their maximum speeds on flat terrain.
I've assembled a chart of max speeds of various German and US vehicles. I'll work on mapping it to in-game movement speeds, probably using an exponential function to exaggerate the differences while maintaining the relative order of vehicles by speed constant. Note that wheeled vehicles should have lower speeds relative to their maximums than tracked ones: maximum speed for a wheeled vehicle is on a clear, straight, paved road, not a camel path through the desert or through a wheat field in Russia. Tracked vehicles are inherently all-terrain, so they maintain something close to their maximum speeds on flat terrain.
We should be able to find 'Cross country speed' for most vehicles.Nemo wrote:Heh, german engineers have been de-Superman'd.
If you guys could throw your replays up somewhere, I'd really like to watch them, as it would be rather helpful for spotting bugs and working on balance.
Edit: Proper vehicle speeds and turret traverse rates would be great. I left them alone since I thought they were already calculated somehow. Which stat should be used for that though? I figure that there's no way a jeep would be able to get up to its max speed on a road (~60 mph) in any kind of battlefield setting (probably limited to more like 25 mph, if that), and it might be hard finding a statistic for "jeep speed over battlefield terrain" or something along those lines.
The nice part is that once we get to doing A&A maps, the terrain type speed modifiers will let us make roads that are actually *worth* something =)
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
What would be really nice is if it were possible to allow the user to set speeds on vehicles lower than the maximum, or even to synchronize an entire group's speed to the slowest unit in the group... infantry and tanks would often advance together, the infantry filling the spaces between the tanks. In this way the two covered each others' weaknesses and were more powerful than if they were used separately.
One thing I want to emphasize is that we must differentiate tanks and infantry in a realistic manner. In the real world, a "fleet of tanks" will lose to a combined-arms force. The Israelis learned this in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 - their army consisted almost exclusively of paratroopers and armored units, but as the war went on and they discovered that pure armored units were not going to do the job, they took the paratroopers, loaded them on trucks and APCs, and formed ad-hoc mechanized units to cooperate with the armored units.
Of course, we've already sort of done this with only letting infantry destroy flags. However, that's not enough.
To rephrase my somewhat incoherent rant: we need to ensure that the late game does not become pure tank combat, because that would be quite unrealistic. A player with a mixed tank and infantry force should almost always beat a pure tank or pure infantry force of the same cost.
One thing I want to emphasize is that we must differentiate tanks and infantry in a realistic manner. In the real world, a "fleet of tanks" will lose to a combined-arms force. The Israelis learned this in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 - their army consisted almost exclusively of paratroopers and armored units, but as the war went on and they discovered that pure armored units were not going to do the job, they took the paratroopers, loaded them on trucks and APCs, and formed ad-hoc mechanized units to cooperate with the armored units.
Of course, we've already sort of done this with only letting infantry destroy flags. However, that's not enough.
To rephrase my somewhat incoherent rant: we need to ensure that the late game does not become pure tank combat, because that would be quite unrealistic. A player with a mixed tank and infantry force should almost always beat a pure tank or pure infantry force of the same cost.
that SHOULD be the case by default anyway
the buildcost balancing should lean towards making infantry very spammable mid-late game,
with transport, AA and some artillery and tanks it would be the perfect army.
also costwise it should make sense to build a balanced army, eg send a mid sized swarm of infantry, let them reach about the halfway point then launch your tank battalions you just made to support them (as long as the infantry mix is good it should survive until the tank support starts rolling).
You shouldn't have to change much to make this the case, just tweak some costs and buildtimes
the buildcost balancing should lean towards making infantry very spammable mid-late game,
with transport, AA and some artillery and tanks it would be the perfect army.
also costwise it should make sense to build a balanced army, eg send a mid sized swarm of infantry, let them reach about the halfway point then launch your tank battalions you just made to support them (as long as the infantry mix is good it should survive until the tank support starts rolling).
You shouldn't have to change much to make this the case, just tweak some costs and buildtimes
Set the tanks and such to gaurd the infantry, they'll stick near to them as they advance. They'll drive in silly circles, of course, but its better than nothing.Felix the Cat wrote:What would be really nice is if it were possible to allow the user to set speeds on vehicles lower than the maximum, or even to synchronize an entire group's speed to the slowest unit in the group... infantry and tanks would often advance together, the infantry filling the spaces between the tanks. In this way the two covered each others' weaknesses and were more powerful than if they were used separately
I agree, infantry should be vital throughout the game..and I feel like while they are highly useful right now (I watched ~10 bazooka troops slaughter a large, unsupported 250/9 pack of yours in your recent game against Flozi), they aren't completely needed. I'll probably up the buildtimes of vehicles a bit so they're even less common, and perhaps have grenades do even more damage to buildings, so if you want to kill a base quickly, you need infantry there.
Any suggestions welcome.