Hey jax, good to see you here! Just one note.
#4 isn't quite correct. They do do damage, but it's pretty small. THe rocket units do a decent bit of damage, but AA units are the best for this purpose... on both sides.
L3 ground attack vtols are not a pretty sight when you have no AA
Other than that I agree with all points.
Expand & Exterminate .155 Released!
Moderator: Moderators
in the closed beta i found even the non-dedicated rocket units scarily effective vs air and AA was just insane. this discrouraged me from using it, then again hopefully as URC u have LoS on any AA :)USE AIR DROPS FFS! Air drops are the shit. THe transports are very good at dropping units quickly. If 5 or 6 l3 units units get airdropped into your base, you're gonna be in some trouble. Especially if those units are flamethrowers. The l3 flamethrowers are just sickening.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I had another series of games. This time 2on2s with Minimat,Krogothe and Fang.
We found some serious exploits: Lvl 1 armed air scouts PWN all, scince the GD AAA cant hit em.
The game is always decided during the first encouter, if one party takes the majority of the metal spots. Air is supposed to off-set that, but it not working quite right yet.
I figure that this isnt such a big issue if you play maps with good flaking options, like the Canyon series, but many maps are straight forward, thus once you reach the middle, you have one duke-it-out and the winner takes it all after that one lvl 1 fight.
I guess that was one of the reason why TA got metal maker. But scince these are not an option, there have to be other ways, Airtransports are a solution, perhaps just make em cheaper.
We found some serious exploits: Lvl 1 armed air scouts PWN all, scince the GD AAA cant hit em.
The game is always decided during the first encouter, if one party takes the majority of the metal spots. Air is supposed to off-set that, but it not working quite right yet.
I figure that this isnt such a big issue if you play maps with good flaking options, like the Canyon series, but many maps are straight forward, thus once you reach the middle, you have one duke-it-out and the winner takes it all after that one lvl 1 fight.
I guess that was one of the reason why TA got metal maker. But scince these are not an option, there have to be other ways, Airtransports are a solution, perhaps just make em cheaper.
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LathanStanley
- Posts: 1429
- Joined: 20 Jun 2005, 05:16
well there's a few balance exploits we're finding... if you guys find other exploits.. please inform anyone with an EE tag and we'll confirm and beef/nerf as needed....
we've got a few changes in mind allready.. and they will be implemented soon... don't get TOO used to the game as is yet...
and everyone owe kudos and cookies to fang, he's done an EXCELLENT job with this mod...
we've got a few changes in mind allready.. and they will be implemented soon... don't get TOO used to the game as is yet...
and everyone owe kudos and cookies to fang, he's done an EXCELLENT job with this mod...
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Actually imo the scouts aren't a problem, the thing that is causing the problem is the turret turnrate of the aa cannon on the GD side. THe urc turret has no problem with scout. 2 or 3 urc aa turrets can own masses of scouts without much trouble.Min3mat wrote:LOL! ROFLMAO! try the scoutsWell fang beefed up the air units a good bit. Air is definately viable, but not really viable for a main attack. And that's a good thing imo.
The scouts may do a bit too much damage as well. Not sure yet.
A fix for the subs taking over water is coming, just trying to find the best way to do it.
Initial EandE impressions:
Forbidding is a great teacher. For one thing he knows nothing makes you learn better then impending death...
A smoldering pile of metal, scraps and burnt plastic (and flesh) surrounds my base. My economy is smashed, my factory's obliterated. The four remaining Heavy Battle Tanks are veterans of many blood battles fought toe to toe, and their crews are ready for death. The enemy surrounds me, ready to fall on my base like a swarm of death. As the swarms of mechs starts to approach, my artillery crews rouse themselves to readiness and my base gets ready for one...last...stand
Expand and Exterminate Is the best...game...ever. I've never played a mod that has offered such a compelling, edge of your seat gaming experience as playing against a skilled enemy in E and E. The sides are unique, unlike the rather generic (if much beloved) Core and Arm. The heavy tanks of the GE and the swift, climby, mechs of the URC both contrast each other to create compelling battles. It was a treat to match the tactics of my enemy (even if they were sugar coated, me being a newby and he being a battle hardened general of death).
He would prod my base. I would beat him back. He would fly bombers over my territory. My flack would blow them up. He would probe my flank, then use his speed to zip around and hit my side. I would respond with long ranged artillery, blasting his mechs apart form a few miles away. He would air drop units into my back yard. I would respond by moving my heavy tanks into a phalanx around my reactors, which proved my downfall as the explosion from the nuclear reactor destroyed two of my precious tanks.
Now the lessons i have learned: Lines are your friends. Your tanks cant shoot over each other, so lining them up quadruples your firing rate and amount. Foreboding Angle is not saying it for his health damn it!
Defense turrets Good. Army BETTER! My defensive line was inflexible, and his mechs were swift and fluid. I needed more mobile units to counter his, and found that lines of for mention mobile units, made my defense's rather killy.
Keep watching the SKYYYYS! Air drops are your worst enemy. Those damn fire mechs, dropped in your back yard look really cool. Unfortunately while they are immolating your buildings...they are well...immolating your damn buildings! Watch the skies!
My grade: A++++++++
Forbidding is a great teacher. For one thing he knows nothing makes you learn better then impending death...
A smoldering pile of metal, scraps and burnt plastic (and flesh) surrounds my base. My economy is smashed, my factory's obliterated. The four remaining Heavy Battle Tanks are veterans of many blood battles fought toe to toe, and their crews are ready for death. The enemy surrounds me, ready to fall on my base like a swarm of death. As the swarms of mechs starts to approach, my artillery crews rouse themselves to readiness and my base gets ready for one...last...stand
Expand and Exterminate Is the best...game...ever. I've never played a mod that has offered such a compelling, edge of your seat gaming experience as playing against a skilled enemy in E and E. The sides are unique, unlike the rather generic (if much beloved) Core and Arm. The heavy tanks of the GE and the swift, climby, mechs of the URC both contrast each other to create compelling battles. It was a treat to match the tactics of my enemy (even if they were sugar coated, me being a newby and he being a battle hardened general of death).
He would prod my base. I would beat him back. He would fly bombers over my territory. My flack would blow them up. He would probe my flank, then use his speed to zip around and hit my side. I would respond with long ranged artillery, blasting his mechs apart form a few miles away. He would air drop units into my back yard. I would respond by moving my heavy tanks into a phalanx around my reactors, which proved my downfall as the explosion from the nuclear reactor destroyed two of my precious tanks.
Now the lessons i have learned: Lines are your friends. Your tanks cant shoot over each other, so lining them up quadruples your firing rate and amount. Foreboding Angle is not saying it for his health damn it!
Defense turrets Good. Army BETTER! My defensive line was inflexible, and his mechs were swift and fluid. I needed more mobile units to counter his, and found that lines of for mention mobile units, made my defense's rather killy.
Keep watching the SKYYYYS! Air drops are your worst enemy. Those damn fire mechs, dropped in your back yard look really cool. Unfortunately while they are immolating your buildings...they are well...immolating your damn buildings! Watch the skies!
My grade: A++++++++
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
I just played newb v newb on okriver remake. I had a few good runs sending groups of 2-3 teir 3 mechs into the teeth of his defences, and always shreded a good deal of his stuff - it seems that those things can take one hell of a beating before going down. I won when I sent 5-6 t3 plasma mechs into his base. But dear god, do they move slow! I'm fairly sure that with better LOS his artys could have beat me down hard. As it was, my arties wreaked havok on his base while he was tied up killing those mechs - and even afterwards, the lash-scorps' low profile kept them alive for far longer than reasonable, all because he was too much of a coward to come out from behind his walls.
He probably should have set his walls further up - as it was, I was able to take all the middle metal nodes with stealth mexxes. He also failed to use the advanced mexxes, and only ever built one nuke reactor. He did do good with a scout rush - those things are brutal if you're caught with your pants down, which happened to me because I relied on radar.
Water units are underdeveloped. There's only one unit capable of attacking attack subs - other attack subs! Also, both sides have essentially the same navy.
And if there's more than two tech levels in the water, as URC I couldn't find it.
He probably should have set his walls further up - as it was, I was able to take all the middle metal nodes with stealth mexxes. He also failed to use the advanced mexxes, and only ever built one nuke reactor. He did do good with a scout rush - those things are brutal if you're caught with your pants down, which happened to me because I relied on radar.
Water units are underdeveloped. There's only one unit capable of attacking attack subs - other attack subs! Also, both sides have essentially the same navy.
And if there's more than two tech levels in the water, as URC I couldn't find it.
Most games end at level 1. Was it intended to be that way?
The reason is, that ressources are so limited, that going to level 2 will get you instantly killed by lvl 1 units of your enemy. Another reason is that lvl 1 towers are not quite as capable as we are used to from other mods.
In fact, it is almost always better to build units instead of towers, scince you will lose if dont keep trying to gain more metal patches.
Many RTS have three options for general gameplay:
- Rushing (Momentum-Player)
- Teching (Overwhelming-Assault)
- Porcing (Slow-Advance)
The games i played of E&E so far have shown that the momentum-player is definatly favoured. While that is a good thing, the other two play styles are actually only viable if your opponents make glaring mistakes, like self-ding their first FAC or something.
You can not tech in this mod, it will get you killed, you can also not porc, it will get you killed even quicker, thats also thanks to cheap and early available artillery, stationary and mobile.
You can try to build momentum and tech meanwhile, sure, but it really isnt neccesary scince all lvl 1 units with any decent number will kill any small tech 2 army.
Its fine if it was intended that way, but i sometimes think that level 2 is useless and level 3 is barely ever seen.
Perhaps there should be an easier way to stop even massed level 1 assaults, like a buffed laser tower, or something. There is not anti-swarm weapon in this mod, so the swarm rules.
Combine that with the fact that you will lose once your enemy gets a few more metal patches than you, and most games will end at level 1.
The reason is, that ressources are so limited, that going to level 2 will get you instantly killed by lvl 1 units of your enemy. Another reason is that lvl 1 towers are not quite as capable as we are used to from other mods.
In fact, it is almost always better to build units instead of towers, scince you will lose if dont keep trying to gain more metal patches.
Many RTS have three options for general gameplay:
- Rushing (Momentum-Player)
- Teching (Overwhelming-Assault)
- Porcing (Slow-Advance)
The games i played of E&E so far have shown that the momentum-player is definatly favoured. While that is a good thing, the other two play styles are actually only viable if your opponents make glaring mistakes, like self-ding their first FAC or something.
You can not tech in this mod, it will get you killed, you can also not porc, it will get you killed even quicker, thats also thanks to cheap and early available artillery, stationary and mobile.
You can try to build momentum and tech meanwhile, sure, but it really isnt neccesary scince all lvl 1 units with any decent number will kill any small tech 2 army.
Its fine if it was intended that way, but i sometimes think that level 2 is useless and level 3 is barely ever seen.
Perhaps there should be an easier way to stop even massed level 1 assaults, like a buffed laser tower, or something. There is not anti-swarm weapon in this mod, so the swarm rules.
Combine that with the fact that you will lose once your enemy gets a few more metal patches than you, and most games will end at level 1.
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
Bruce, drone, the exact opposite is the truth as i stated before.
You can just spam 30 plasma light mechs, and kill anything in your path, scince there is no anti-swarm unit, and no defence is strong enough to stop them. Your commander can only run away.
A few level 2 units you might have by that point wont stop them either.
Mines? Not string enough.
They just mow you down, and there is nothig you can do, they even kill air units.
There is no anti-swarm weapon.
Yes, you could say now that one must attack earlier to prevent the building of a swarm.
But the simple fact is, that most games are team games, and in team games there is always one opponent that gets ignored for the first half of the game, and if only one player can build a swarm of anything, he will win.
There is no unit or turret against a swarm, the mix doesnt help, it just dies.
There should be some kind of swarm defense turret. In other mods, your commander is swarm defense, and its also the commander there that makes it neccessary to go to level 2 in most cases.
E&E doesnt have this neccessity, the swarm owns all.
Modify one of the level 1 turrtes as long range anti-swarm or something, but the way it is now, level 1 swarm owns all.
That is quite different from the other mods, but it gets tedious none the less.
You can just spam 30 plasma light mechs, and kill anything in your path, scince there is no anti-swarm unit, and no defence is strong enough to stop them. Your commander can only run away.
A few level 2 units you might have by that point wont stop them either.
Mines? Not string enough.
They just mow you down, and there is nothig you can do, they even kill air units.
There is no anti-swarm weapon.
Yes, you could say now that one must attack earlier to prevent the building of a swarm.
But the simple fact is, that most games are team games, and in team games there is always one opponent that gets ignored for the first half of the game, and if only one player can build a swarm of anything, he will win.
There is no unit or turret against a swarm, the mix doesnt help, it just dies.
There should be some kind of swarm defense turret. In other mods, your commander is swarm defense, and its also the commander there that makes it neccessary to go to level 2 in most cases.
E&E doesnt have this neccessity, the swarm owns all.
Modify one of the level 1 turrtes as long range anti-swarm or something, but the way it is now, level 1 swarm owns all.
That is quite different from the other mods, but it gets tedious none the less.