[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81

[1v0ry_k1ng]

the low HP and speed do result in slower expansion are more dead cons, however

[YokoZar]

the low HP and speed do result in slower expansion are more dead cons, however

Yes, which is exactly why I think they're balanced in a way as is - one is better at building a static base, the other at expanding.

On the other hand, this isn't terribly obvious to new players, and the narrow times where you have a somewhat static base don't often match with the roles of kbots.

[Pxtl]

The slight cost advantage is nullified by the fact that kbots have to get from point A to point B before building. A kbot player has to split their usage between conbots and rezbots to get anything done, while the vehicle player can spam a horde of convehs to handle field-work, base-building, reclaiming, etc.

I mean, I appreciate the "conbots are better for base-work" but the difference is just too narrow in comparison with all they other bennies that a vehicle gets. If the conbots got a buff in their workertime so the difference was more pronounced, then maybe you'd have something... but right now it's a very thin edge.

[YokoZar]

The slight cost advantage is nullified by the fact that kbots have to get from point A to point B before building. A kbot player has to split their usage between conbots and rezbots to get anything done, while the vehicle player can spam a horde of convehs to handle field-work, base-building, reclaiming, etc.

I mean, I appreciate the "conbots are better for base-work" but the difference is just too narrow in comparison with all they other bennies that a vehicle gets. If the conbots got a buff in their workertime so the difference was more pronounced, then maybe you'd have something... but right now it's a very thin edge.

The fact that resbots exist at all could be an interesting balance for kbots, however this still leaves the hammer and thud out in the woods.


At tier 2, Core K-Bots are better balanced than Arm K-Bots with respect to vehicles. Tier 2 Core has the pyro and the sumo, filling the extreme roles that the vehicles can't (very fast and very heavy), while vehicles have the more middle of the road goliath and reaper. Both kbots and vehicles have a dominator type unit, and Core's slower t2 con kbot and lack of heavy missile trucks or anti-nukes are balanced by the awesome freaker and quicker path to t3.

Arm tier 2, on the other hand, is a bit more dicey. The consul is as awesome as the freaker, but is a vehicle. The bulldog fills many of the same roles as the zeus, which can be built by consuls anyway. There is no good equivalent to the merl, though the fatboy attempts to fill the role. The FARK is ok, but much worse than the freaker or consul: roughly same cost, fewer innate resources, can't build nano turrets, land mines, or units. The FARK's one advantage is it's easy to spam wind farms (which the consul can't make), but that only applies maps where there's a ton of wind. Zippers and panthers have similar roles, as do snipers and penetrators.

So, basically, Arm's t2 kbot advantages are the pelican, the anti-nuke, the zipper, and the fatboy.

[Pxtl]

The roles are supposed to that Fatboy/Sumo and Goliath/Penetrator are a weird little family.

And you underestimate the Zeus. It can be better than the tanks in a frontal assault against a tight point, because the Zeus can pack much more armour and firepower into a small space than the Bulldog can. The Can has been buffed to be similar.

And the Consul is better than the Freaker, because the Consul effectively adds a bunch of Kbots to the Arm vehicle lab, partiuclarly the Zeus which is often too slow to properly offensively deploy, whereas the Consul allows the player to build zeuses right at the front line. Freaker is a kbot that builds kbots.

The Fark was never intended for construction - it's for assistance, repair, and reclamation. Don't think of it as a replacement for the Consul, but as a highly mobile mass of nanolathe that you can get anywhere on the map in seconds.

"Quick path to T3" is irrelevant - nobody rushes to T3. I mean, it is occasionally worthwhile to go there, but the speed of that path doesn't really matter since by the time you're going to be building T3 units, you've got the resources to spare.

[YokoZar]

The roles are supposed to that Fatboy/Sumo and Goliath/Penetrator are a weird little family.

And you underestimate the Zeus. It can be better than the tanks in a frontal assault against a tight point, because the Zeus can pack much more armour and firepower into a small space than the Bulldog can. The Can has been buffed to be similar.

The zeus is great - but it doesn't count as a kbot lab advantage since it can be built by consuls.

And the Consul is better than the Freaker, because the Consul effectively adds a bunch of Kbots to the Arm vehicle lab, partiuclarly the Zeus which is often too slow to properly offensively deploy, whereas the Consul allows the player to build zeuses right at the front line. Freaker is a kbot that builds kbots.

True, though the consul is more expensive. It'd be pretty broken if the freaker could make reapers or goliath though.

The Fark was never intended for construction - it's for assistance, repair, and reclamation. Don't think of it as a replacement for the Consul, but as a highly mobile mass of nanolathe that you can get anywhere on the map in seconds

Yeah, but that narrows its role and makes it suck, especially compared to core kbots (who do get the freaker).

Maybe the FARK should be able to build advanced solars (which shouldn't be too bad since you're at tier 2 anyway). It would also be fun if it got land mines (something arm kbots is missing entirely, unlike core who gets medium mines with the freaker)

[BaNa]

Adding mexes and llts to the rezbot buildlist would make the whole "kbot cons are slow waaah" argument fail.

[det]

Vehicles beat kbots on almost any map (even most so-called "kbot" maps) if only because they can do nothing to counter missle truck spam. Then add janus/leveler on top of that and the situation is very bleak for kbots.

[YokoZar]

Vehicles beat kbots on almost any map (even most so-called "kbot" maps) if only because they can do nothing to counter missle truck spam. Then add janus/leveler on top of that and the situation is very bleak for kbots.

Actually that's a very good point - AK and PeeWee kill missile trucks, but get slaughtered by even a few levelers.

What if Thuds and Hammers were missile resistant?

[imbaczek]

maybe everyone should stop being in denial that kbots are fine when they aren't? just bring their health and dps on par with vehs, they'll still suck due to lower speed.

[pintle]

maybe everyone should stop being in denial that kbots are fine when they aren't? just bring their health and dps on par with vehs, they'll still suck due to lower speed.

Its taken literally years, but it looks like the BA balance debate might finally be making some headway!


An intuitive basic premise for balancing kbot/veh as I see it:

Kbots: Higher DPS for cost than veh, slower, more vunerability to AOE, superior skirmish ability (through turn/accell rates), superior compound interest on cons lab assisting

Veh: Higher HP for cost than Kbots, faster, (thus naturally better at headlong charges into dfenz), more resilient cons with superior individual BP.

This is assuming that you dont do something retarded like give only 1 lab HLT killing artillery/amphibs/amphib cons etc

[el_matarife]

Why does the construction seaplane build medium land mines instead of medium sea mines?

[Klopper]

Why does the construction seaplane build medium land mines instead of medium sea mines?

I like it that way, it can be a nice support for land players.

Regarding kbots, imho a reasonable step to have them fill the agility/skirmisher role better would be to greatly improve their turret turn rate, especially for Peewees, AKs and Mavericks. I mean, seriously, Maverick is my favourite Arm t2 kbot, predestined for killing off good amounts of t1 or slow, short-ranged t2 stuff (like cans) if microed properly...but it takes it forever to turn his guns towards the enemy which is no appropriate behavior for his role imho
Oh, and reduce Peewee/AK chain exploding plz

[TheFatController]

Without thorough testing (so subject to change) my initial thoughts for t1 kbots only would be something like :-

- Raise thud/hammer hp.
- Reduce value of wrecks left by all t1 kbots by up to 50% (can be explained as bits fly off and disintegrate).
- Reduce the number of damaging kbot shards produced by deaths by around 50%.
- Raise buildpower on kbot constructors and the lab itsself to 20-25% more than vehicles.
- Raise kbot resbot and mobile AA move speed a little.

- Increase buildtime and energy on amphib construction vehicle, make it slower on land.

The wreck change would give kbot assaults a slightly different role as vehicles would leave more wrecks and be more 'risky' if an assault failed but kbots could be used in light skirmishing more without rewarding the enemy with a stack of metal.

[pintle]

Without thorough testing (so subject to change) my initial thoughts for t1 kbots only would be something like :-

- Raise thud/hammer hp.
- Reduce value of wrecks left by all t1 kbots by up to 50% (can be explained as bits fly off and disintegrate).
- Reduce the number of damaging kbot shards produced by deaths by around 50%.
- Raise buildpower on kbot constructors and the lab itsself to 20-25% more than vehicles.
- Raise kbot resbot and mobile AA move speed a little.

- Increase buildtime and energy on amphib construction vehicle, make it slower on land.

The wreck change would give kbot assaults a slightly different role as vehicles would leave more wrecks and be more 'risky' if an assault failed but kbots could be used in light skirmishing more without rewarding the enemy with a stack of metal.

I think you really need to re-assess the viability of an equal cost kbot force in the field vs veh. Economic/build changes dont mean shit if X number of veh can kill an almost infinite number of kbots with minimal losses.

That said, all of your changes seem positive.

[Pxtl]

- Raise thud/hammer hp.
- Reduce value of wrecks left by all t1 kbots by up to 50% (can be explained as bits fly off and disintegrate).
- Reduce the number of damaging kbot shards produced by deaths by around 50%.
- Raise buildpower on kbot constructors and the lab itsself to 20-25% more than vehicles.
- Raise kbot resbot and mobile AA move speed a little.

- Increase buildtime and energy on amphib construction vehicle, make it slower on land.

...

Don't like the wreck change. Casual players won't realize the difference, and it doesn't really make sense.

Personally, I think the rezbot fast enough. If anything, I'd add a very short buildlist to it - the metal extractor, dragon's teeth, and the radar tower.

Everything else looks just perfect, though. Would love to see each of those changes in-game.

My only question: what about the Warrior? Am I the only one who thinks it's functionally redundant with the Hammer?

[TheFatController]

The reason I feel it makes sense for gameplay is that it's only ever worth attacking enemies lines if you can certainly break through, anything less is just handing the enemy free metal.

Letting kbots launch small assaults with less reward to the enemy would give them a different role to vehicles

[1v0ry_k1ng]

warrior and hammer have totally diffrent roles. warrior is for beating back fast raiders from a direct assault (moving backwards, outranging, accuracy, high indiviual HP).
hammer is a HP dump that you build en masse and send in a huge wave that has too much health to be deflected.

fatcontroller, please pleaase adress the AK/PW huge builtimes+energy cost vs vehicles, its blatantly the biggest weakness of bots more than anything (unable to produce high dps raiders at the same rate vehicles can)

thud/hammer HP and kbotcon BP sound solid, and less chainsploding will be nice for core and their 225hp AK :p

[imbaczek]

The reason I feel it makes sense for gameplay is that it's only ever worth attacking enemies lines if you can certainly break through, anything less is just handing the enemy free metal.

speed is vital in this use case. kbots don't have it and playing with wrecks won't change anything.

[Klopper]

And please give my poor lonesome cowboy (Maverick) stronger hips aka faster turret turn rate so he can start lolshooting Cans and Raiders before they reach my windfarms, not 1 minute after