Absolute Annihilation 1.5

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 01 Jun 2006, 17:17

Firstly, leave Pxtl alone or I'll ban you eight times before you hit the ground. And I'm not even a mod.

Second, this mod is meant to be based around an upgraded, better balanced OTA.

OTA Bulldog description: Heavy Assault Tank
OTA Reaper description: Heavy Assault Tank
OTA Goliath description: Very Heavy Assault Tank

I rest my case ^^

The balance I was thinking of is something like this: 15% less HP on bulldog, 20% less costs, 5% decreased damage, 5% increased fire rate, 20% increase to acceleration, 20% increase to braking, 15% increase to turn rate, 10% increase to speed, 5% decrease to model size, 10% increased scripted aiming rate.

For Reapers: Less cost than bulldog, but also slower to move and maneuver, etc. Essentially an equivalent unit but more towards Core's way of thinking. 8% decrease to model size (to emphasize the size of Goliath more than anything)

Goliath (gah): 15% HP increase, 20% damage increase, 10% rate of fire decrease, 20% across-the-board handling and speed reduction, 10% cost increase, 5% model size increase, larger weapon AoE and possibly impulsefactor, 5% slower aiming rate.

Not the XTA goliath.

Deathblane · Post by **Deathblane** » 01 Jun 2006, 17:25

It would be nice to see more of a size decrese on the Bulldog and the Reaper, as it would again make the Golioth look bigger and make them more useful (in terms of being able to move through areas easier and fit more int the same space).

But yeah, sounds good.

ginekolog · Post by **ginekolog** » 01 Jun 2006, 17:33

caydar edit your post, last part u talk about new golie (not buldog)

All 3 units must be able to crush corpses though (like buldog does) or they will jam.

Soulless1 · Post by **Soulless1** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:00

I like

And yeah, I read the last part for the golly without even realising you'd typed the wrong name

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:19

Caydr: And the Demolisher and Exploiters? Thinking about it, the L1 exploiters are insane. A little more costly than a Mex + LLT, more than twice the health, and anti-raider. And the Demolisher simply seems to have no role at all.

The Bulldog/Reaper/Goliath fixes sound very good.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:30

Egarwaen wrote:Caydr: And the Demolisher and Exploiters? Thinking about it, the L1 exploiters are insane. A little more costly than a Mex + LLT, more than twice the health, and anti-raider. And the Demolisher simply seems to have no role at all.

The Bulldog/Reaper/Goliath fixes sound very good.

The exploiters turning rate is scripted to be relative to it's metal income, iirc.

Like I said before, they're expensive and produce less metal than their normal equivalents. Just like LLTs, exploiters get hammered by anything with a longer range than themselves.

If your raiding unit gets destroyed by a mex, send heavier units; a couple of rockos should take it down.

Also, Arm has the warrior and janus for antiswarm, while Core has the exploiter and leveller.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:32

exploiters also build really slow!

Leave them alone, they are fine!

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:33

Sounds good. You really need to edit the last part so it says 'Goliath' instead of 'Bulldog' (already mentioned changes to buldog earlier)

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:41

I'm a little confused. While I can see how they will differ from their old selves and from the Arm bulldog, how, in the end, will they compare to each other? Will be the Goli be mainly a bigger, longer ranged Reaper? How will the manoeverability of the Reaper compare to the Goli?

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 18:45

Aun wrote:Like I said before, they're expensive and produce less metal than their normal equivalents. Just like LLTs, exploiters get hammered by anything with a longer range than themselves.

If I'm reading the numbers right, the Exploiter produces 90% of the metal of the regular mex. And few raiding units have a range longer than the Exploiter. The complaint was never that they're invincible, but that they basically counter raiding outright.

Also, Arm has the warrior and janus for antiswarm, while Core has the exploiter and leveller.

So the Arm has two units that you have to dedicate a lot of factory buildtime to, while the Core has one that only takes con buildtime, takes less buildtime, is cheaper, and gives you resources.

NOiZE wrote:exploiters also build really slow!

Mex Buildtime: 1874
LLT Buildtime: 2724
Exploiter Buildtime: 2960 (highest DPS, too, second-best range)
Warrior Buildtime: 7009 (second-highest DPS)
Janus Buildtime: 3545 (best range)
Leveler Buildtime: 5009

Yes, the Exploiter isn't mobile. I'll give you that. But it is always in a good place to protect against econ raids. For the amount of time it takes you to build a Warrior, you can get two Exploiters, which not only expand your economy, but will probably be more effective at protecting it against raiding. And you can still use your L1 factory to produce other units.

min3mat, how's that stack up with your experience?

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:06

Egarwaen wrote:Yes, the Exploiter isn't mobile. I'll give you that. But it is always in a good place to protect against econ raids. For the amount of time it takes you to build a Warrior, you can get two Exploiters, which not only expand your economy, but will probably be more effective at protecting it against raiding. And you can still use your L1 factory to produce other units.

But it also cost nearly the same as 4 Mexxes!!!

Mex:

Energy Cost: 514
Metal Cost: 51
Build Time: 1874
Metal Extract Rate: 0.001

Exploiter:

Energy Cost: 2264
Metal Cost: 188
Build Time: 2960
Metal Extract Rate: 0.0009

And it also extracts 10% less!

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:21

NOiZE wrote:But it also cost nearly the same as 4 Mexxes!!!

Why's that an appropriate comparison? The mexes are completely defenceless, and vulnerable to raiders.

Mex + LLT: 135m, 1166e, 4598bt. 760 HP.
Exploiter: 188m, 2264e, 2960bt. 1100 HP, effectively ~3000 HP against raiders.
Warrior: 322m, 5113e, 7009bt. 1400 HP, effectively ~4000 HP against raiders.

Again, the issue here is not that Exploiters are invincible. It's that they effectively stop raids dead, instead of slowing them down or making them harder, and aren't particularly tough to build.

But people don't seem to think that raiding's important, so whatever. Again: Demolishers. Is there any time when you'd use one instead of a Bulldog, Penetrator, or Luger?

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:25

I don't understand the comparison with the warrior tbh

The warrior is supposed to be compared with the leveler

and i still thinkg the exploiter is FINE as it is

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:35

NOiZE wrote:I don't understand the comparison with the warrior tbh

The warrior is supposed to be compared with the leveler

So what compares with the Exploiter? The Janus?

I'm comparing with the Warrior because the Exploiter's about the same level of effectiveness at stopping raids. They have similar weapons (though the Exploiter has a higher DPS and longer range) and similar health. One's stationary, the other's (barely) mobile. One's a lot cheaper. You begin to see the problem?

Sure, the Warrior can be used as an assault unit. They're similar to the Zeus, but with a much lower DPS. But does anyone do this? I'm pretty sure Hammer/Thud swarms work better.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:50

The arm has a stealthy mex, which is actually quite good..

so underused IMO

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:54

NOiZE wrote:The arm has a stealthy mex, which is actually quite good..

so underused IMO

Yes. But still not comparable to the Exploiter. In fact, more along the lines of what the Exploiter should be IMO. It slows down raids if your opponent's careless, or makes them less effective. It doesn't tear them to pieces while shrugging off any damage they can deal.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 01 Jun 2006, 19:59

Well the exploiter costs more

And the sides need to be different in someway..

Drone_Fragger · Post by **Drone_Fragger** » 01 Jun 2006, 20:00

Why does everyone build thud/hammer swarms? They suck so bad. Seriously, You can kill 20 hammers with 20 peewees, BECAUSE THEY ARE LIGHT ARTILLERY, NOT UBER KILL ALL UNITS OF DEWM.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 01 Jun 2006, 20:02

NOiZE wrote:Well the exploiter costs more

And the sides need to be different in someway..

Yeah. Besides, if a player covers all the metal spots they can get to with exploiters, especially on a low metal map, they're crippling their early game.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 01 Jun 2006, 20:07

NOiZE wrote:Well the exploiter costs more

And the sides need to be different in someway..

Why does that always seem to be used as an excuse for giving one side a absurdly efficient unit? They can be different without that. And the issue isn't someone who uses them everywhere. Those are easy enough to beat. The problem is people who use them intelligently and effectively prevent any raiding.

DroneFragger wrote:Why does everyone build thud/hammer swarms? They suck so bad. Seriously, You can kill 20 hammers with 20 peewees, BECAUSE THEY ARE LIGHT ARTILLERY, NOT UBER KILL ALL UNITS OF DEWM.

They're tough, they're faster than Rockos/Storms, they have a good range, and they mass very nicely because they can fire over each other. Individually they have a lower DPS, but they group very nicely.

IIRC, Peewees/AKs mostly kill Hammers/Thuds because they get up close and the Hammer swarm's AoE starts hurting it more than the enemies.

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 1.5