Balanced Annihilation V5.91

[KlavoHunter]

It's not *needed*, no, it won't add anything to the balance of the game, with that I agree.

It's really a matter of style.

Should the Bantha fire generic blue crap that no other Arm unit (or Core unit, for that matter!) has in any other form... or a large Lightning Gun, like a Zeus writ huge?

[ginekolog]

Does anyone else feel this mod is very balanced atm? Both core n arm are usefull and most of units. I even saw ples used effectevly on tropical. Heck even at T1 veh i use healthy mix of gator raider and slasher - mix works better than single unit spam.

Units that lacks usability are imo amphibs (too slow underwater) and normal and battle subs and battleships.

[Machiosabre]

just water in general is a bit crappy.

[LordMatt]

Amphibious tanks can be useful sometimes (particularly early in game on a sea map like SOW or C2C), or as a surprise going over terrain the other player thinks is too steep for vehicles.

6.0 has some fixes for the problems gine points out, but unfortunately, it cannot be released until the new spring is ready (those wanting to test could play me 1v1 with the latest SVN though).

[kiki]

lethal subs plx. Subs should own water, not be owned in water.

[DZHIBRISH]

SEA:
Subs are rediculeous,they need to shoot in all directions than they will be more balanced and wont get owned by destroyers coming from beind them or just going at them head on and passing them.
yes destroyers are much more expensive but they can bombard land,can hit hovers,have a huge range and they are faster.
Make subs shoot 360 degress this is the 40th millennium not WW1.
Another thing is the hovers,they are fast,they cant be hit by torpedoes nor subs and can build underwater.
All i can say is WTF.
Even T2 water units have problems with hovers.
Cost for cost hovers can actually be more useful than T2 ships since they dont get hit by t2 torpedo launchers,t2 subs,can in fact go head to head vs t2 ships(yes i admit t2 ships have bigger ranges and yes t2 ships give you the ability to build advanced eco structures but microing t2 is not always possible and in many cases either cause of lack of radar coverage in the far away places or tight fights were u cant retreat back cause you are near your base)
Lets start by making hovers build floating mexes instead of underwater ones,so they can be killed by ships and subs of all types.
It makes sense and will make hovers less crazy.

GINE:
T1 vehicles are ok,but what about the rezzers hack?
kbots are under powered vs vehicles on most maps so rezzers were introduced,it didnt actually solve the problem but did add a very bad concept to t1 kbot play.
Return rezzers to t2 and make them usefull,thats all,we dont need t1 rezzer spams,it does not create good gameplay.
Instead of the rezzers add normal units to t1 kbots like a builder that can build underwater or a fast con that can build basic buildings and move fast to compinsate for kbot weakness on bigger than 8v8 maps (even if they are hilly).

T2 kbots are a problem as well ,u cant even mention them fighting on small platoes,they get owned.
If its head to head units like zeus or mavrick,they get owned by vehicles with area of dmg and greater ranges or defensive structures.
Again a few units were introduced to "balance" things out(and im not saying units shouldnt be weaker on flat areas but not that weak and not so weak versus defenses)like the sniper and the sumo.
The sumo is basicly how a kbot unit should be like,its slow,yes'but has good dmg,good armor and good range.
Snipers compinsate with cloacking and range and the rest of the units are basiclly very specialised and weak and are used very rarely.
End of story.
either make kbots more spammable and cheaper or make them have better ranges or much more hp and dmg(yes even more).that way on maps that have hilly regions and flat regions it will be possible to play with kbots and also on bigger maps where ATM they instantly get absolete cause they are so slow and have such slow cons.

[KingRaptor]

Subs are fine.

[kiki]

subs suck atm, and need fixing. Maybe beef up kbots, but dont take my rezzs please :)

[Pxtl]

Maek all kbots amphib kthxbye.

[Neddie]

As far as sea units go, I think submarines are fine at the moment. Sadly, the Battle/Artillery Sub and the Battleship have very... uhm... weak roles still. As in, why did you build the former in 9/10 situations, and why did you build the latter... ever?

[ginekolog]

T1 subs are allmost fine, i would give them some 10% buff.
Sharks are ok as subkilers.
Battlesubs suck because of narrow firing angle and slow turnrate. DMG and health is ok.

I used aritlerysubs on purebattlemaps because of their awsome range , but in prev ver cruser spam killed all watter so no point.

Battlehips lack RANGE and hp, perhaps even dps. 1500 could work.

[Saktoth]

Vettes/cruisers/etc rape hovers, t1 sub is only UP if vette is UP (Which, i think, with the buffed-to-core-levels-with-arty-range roy, it is slightly) since sub is vettes counter. If vette is useful sub is useful.

If roy is used in preference to vette for ship-to-ship, hovers can be used more as roy isnt quite as good vs them (but vette rapes em). If hovers can be used more, sub again becomes less useful as it cant hit hovers- etc etc on down the chain.

Sub shooting only forward is fine. MICRO MICRO MICRO.

[DZHIBRISH]

NO.
Sub shooting only farward is not fair(and when i say that i remember in my mind the cost differances).
The fact you need to micro it but you dont need to micro a crusader makes it weaker cause at an intense situation where u have to micro many other things a destroyer will have bigger chances serviving on its own if you dont pay attention for a moment,.
That is an important trait unless your a player that can control every unit and micro it at the same time all the time.
Anakonda vs a Corvette:
a corvette costs 100 metal more and a corvette takes 2 times longer to build.
Corvettes also get hit from torpedoes and from those things destoryers shoot,while hovers dont and hovers of course can build and operate on land.

***edited***
Subs are already slow and clumsy,with 360 shooting degree they wont be oped.

[Machiosabre]

I dont mind subs shooting forward, but to be fair depth charges should only have a limited arc as well. really they should have like no range and big aoe so they act a little bit like depth charges

[DZHIBRISH]

This wole discussion is futile.
T1 ea balance isnt a pressing issue as the gameplay is alreadt fun there and all that nees to be done are small tweaks to make it more logical while not wrecking any of the fun.
More pressing issues are t2 ships,and t1,t2 kbots.

[LordMatt]

Better to just ignore him. And ppl no need to continue harping on battlesub/battleship those changes have already been made in 6.0. We're just waiting for the new release of spring.

[ginekolog]

Better to just ignore him. And ppl no need to continue harping on battlesub/battleship those changes have already been made in 6.0. We're just waiting for the new release of spring.

sounds great. Where can i peek at beta changelogs?

[Saktoth]

Sub outranges a destroyer, and can sit outside a destroyers sonar range and still hit him. A sub can kill an unmicro'd destroyer easily. Even easier if you spot for the sub (using sonar, skeeters, another sub, your surface fleet, etc) as the subs sonar/los doesnt reach its max range, so you can get even more range if you spot.

Sub vs Roy is pure micro. Thats all it comes down to. This isnt a problem, as ships are so expensive that you'll never have more than is reasonable to manage.

[LordMatt]

But at long range its easy to avoid the sub's torpedos (and who in their right might leaves their roy a sitting duck).

[Evil4Zerggin]

Is it intended that the advanced shipyard does not leave a corpse when destroyed by torpedo bombers (not sure about other units or torpedoes)?

Also, in a few games yesterday I saw a lot of Gimp spam, which succeeded in doing major damage to several sea players. Some people complained it was OP; I myself am split on the issue. A non-exclusive list of points:

Arguments For Gimp Being OP
360 degree torpedo offsets its slower speed relative to subs.
Cheapest underwater unit with an attack.
Amphibious, so has some use outside of water.
Sea players often have a hard time defending against attacks; they rarely have chokepoints, and they must defend against air, hover, and underwater, of which no weapon can defend attack more than one of these effectively at a time. Once a sea player owns the sea, the generally-held assumption is that they no longer have to worry much about underwater attacks, but with the Gimp this is no longer true.

Arguments Against Gimp Being OP
Built only at the T2 Kbot lab, which is not terribly popular otherwise, and has less underwater capability otherwise, and by the naval engineer, which is sea anyway.
Gimp is not very good on land.
Vulnerable to torpedo bombers.
If the sea player owns their sea, they should be able to scout the enemy regularly and thus see the Gimps coming. If the sea player does not own their sea, they should have ASW anyway.

Other Issues
ARM has no equivalent to the Gimp.

Finally,

if vette is UP (Which, i think, with the buffed-to-core-levels-with-arty-range roy, it is slightly)

I think so too. In particular, I think the corv could stand to be faster, as in faster than the royer (or make the royer slower).