I could see this move working, albeit Core would need an exploiter fusion to balance it out.
Think about it, while ARM gets all sorts of cloakable mexes, fusion, and even fake fusion, core gets all kinds of exploiters. If you remove cfusion for core, its logical to give core an exploiter fusion.
Absolute Annihilation 2.11
Moderator: Moderators
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Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
I noticed something wierd about Core's Wolverine (L1 Arty Vehicle).
Let's say, you want to shoot at an HLT - you need to stay out of it's range and use the max range of the ARTY to destroy the HLT.
Sounds normal alright?
Well, put the Wolverines outside the gat's Range and tell them to attack the Gat.
make sure they're on hold position too.
What will happen is that they will try to "move" forward like a snail instead of firing - the gat is already in range, but they refuse to fire for some reason, they keep going forward and entering the gat's range by mistake which is quite frustrating.
It doesn't happen w/ Arm's Shellshocker, only with the wolverine.
ANNOYING! FIX IT!
It's even more annoying when there's multiple targets in sight and you want them to target the GAT instead of LLTs or other crap.
And yes - I DID have LOS.
Same thing happens w/ Arm's Panther (level 2 Lightning tank).
It refuses to fire, even with los and hold position.
:< :< :<.
Let's say, you want to shoot at an HLT - you need to stay out of it's range and use the max range of the ARTY to destroy the HLT.
Sounds normal alright?
Well, put the Wolverines outside the gat's Range and tell them to attack the Gat.
make sure they're on hold position too.
What will happen is that they will try to "move" forward like a snail instead of firing - the gat is already in range, but they refuse to fire for some reason, they keep going forward and entering the gat's range by mistake which is quite frustrating.
It doesn't happen w/ Arm's Shellshocker, only with the wolverine.
ANNOYING! FIX IT!
It's even more annoying when there's multiple targets in sight and you want them to target the GAT instead of LLTs or other crap.
And yes - I DID have LOS.
Same thing happens w/ Arm's Panther (level 2 Lightning tank).
It refuses to fire, even with los and hold position.
:< :< :<.
It's secondary weapon is aa only (missiles launcher) and longer ranged than it's main weapon (lightning), so it moves into range for the missile launcher and then can't fire on ground units.Foxomaniac wrote: Same thing happens w/ Arm's Panther (level 2 Lightning tank).
It refuses to fire, even with los and hold position.
:< :< :<.
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Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
I've noticed this too. I'm not sure what it is, but it's really annoying. The Wolverine seems to refuse to fire except at targets that are nearly right on top of it. When you can convince it to fire, it's very effective, but most of the time it either just sits there or decides to commit suicide.Foxomaniac wrote:What will happen is that they will try to "move" forward like a snail instead of firing - the gat is already in range, but they refuse to fire for some reason, they keep going forward and entering the gat's range by mistake which is quite frustrating.
What is annoying is ppl that think all LVL1 defences should be destyoyable without any real losses.
Rocko/Storm's already cream LLT&HLLT unoposed, because they match range.
Arty and Missletrucks also match range of the HLT, and all you have to do is send 2-3 light raid units in to draw fire, then scoot ur arty and missletrucks up during the attack and the HLT falls.
Being able to harass all defences short of the guardian/punisher without even taking damage would be a much worse problem than giving those lvl1 arty units a range advantage.
Rocko/Storm's already cream LLT&HLLT unoposed, because they match range.
Arty and Missletrucks also match range of the HLT, and all you have to do is send 2-3 light raid units in to draw fire, then scoot ur arty and missletrucks up during the attack and the HLT falls.
Being able to harass all defences short of the guardian/punisher without even taking damage would be a much worse problem than giving those lvl1 arty units a range advantage.
Flak range increased 10%, mobile flak range increased to same as stationary, all special damage values removed from anti swarm and anti bomber turrets.
Gunship brake rate reduced 25%, acceleration reduced 20%, speed
reduced 15%, rotation reduced 10%
(guships have a resistance to anti swarm and anti bomer if im not mistaken, so as of next version they wont)
Given the above changes you might aswell remove gunships from the game. They already become almost obsolete once a LR tower goes up.
These changes dont seem to make sense.
Id leave the whole gunship balance the way it is at the moment, its good, theyre useful ( very, if you keep them for a suprise) but easily countered once theyre in play.
Gunship brake rate reduced 25%, acceleration reduced 20%, speed
reduced 15%, rotation reduced 10%
(guships have a resistance to anti swarm and anti bomer if im not mistaken, so as of next version they wont)
Given the above changes you might aswell remove gunships from the game. They already become almost obsolete once a LR tower goes up.
These changes dont seem to make sense.
Id leave the whole gunship balance the way it is at the moment, its good, theyre useful ( very, if you keep them for a suprise) but easily countered once theyre in play.
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Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
oh word?
Missile Truck range : 550.
HLT range : 620.
Hows that matching?
Also, spring's defenses automatically target the most expenzsive unit in range so doing what you are suggesting wouldn't work, the HLT would kill ONE meatshield tank and go after the Samsons/Slashers
Not to mention that even if the Missile Trucks fire, they'l do damage equal to that of a peashooter.
I'm sorry good sir, but it is a bug that must be fixed - not a matter of balance.
If defenses weren't "destroyable without any real losses" then AA would be a complete porcfest, walk the HLT line to your enemy!
Put DT in Front of HLT = Storms/Rockos pwnt.
Stick some LLTs/HLLTs and DT Them = storm/rocko invasion thwarted.
And by YOUR logic we should remove merls, lugers and penetrators (and the counterparts) so defenses won't die without the attacker suffering "real losses".
We're playing TA, not RA2.
Sending your units to suicide = free metal.
Free Metal = More enemy porcage/units.
Go back to playing whatever porc map you play :p.
Missile Truck range : 550.
HLT range : 620.
Hows that matching?
Also, spring's defenses automatically target the most expenzsive unit in range so doing what you are suggesting wouldn't work, the HLT would kill ONE meatshield tank and go after the Samsons/Slashers
Not to mention that even if the Missile Trucks fire, they'l do damage equal to that of a peashooter.
I'm sorry good sir, but it is a bug that must be fixed - not a matter of balance.
If defenses weren't "destroyable without any real losses" then AA would be a complete porcfest, walk the HLT line to your enemy!
Put DT in Front of HLT = Storms/Rockos pwnt.
Stick some LLTs/HLLTs and DT Them = storm/rocko invasion thwarted.
And by YOUR logic we should remove merls, lugers and penetrators (and the counterparts) so defenses won't die without the attacker suffering "real losses".
We're playing TA, not RA2.
Sending your units to suicide = free metal.
Free Metal = More enemy porcage/units.
Go back to playing whatever porc map you play :p.
+1 to Fox.
Also remember that, due to their superior range, defences stack very quickly. A swarm of Storms and Thuds might be able to handle an HLT plus two-three LLTs. More than that? No luck. And they have significantly less range than an HLT.
Also remember that, due to their superior range, defences stack very quickly. A swarm of Storms and Thuds might be able to handle an HLT plus two-three LLTs. More than that? No luck. And they have significantly less range than an HLT.
Last edited by Egarwaen on 03 Sep 2006, 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
The anti swarm/bomber bonuses was extra damage against fighters/bombers respectively, so that doesnt affect bombers.BigSteve wrote:Flak range increased 10%, mobile flak range increased to same as stationary, all special damage values removed from anti swarm and anti bomber turrets.
Gunship brake rate reduced 25%, acceleration reduced 20%, speed
reduced 15%, rotation reduced 10%
(guships have a resistance to anti swarm and anti bomer if im not mistaken, so as of next version they wont)
Given the above changes you might aswell remove gunships from the game. They already become almost obsolete once a LR tower goes up.
These changes dont seem to make sense.
Id leave the whole gunship balance the way it is at the moment, its good, theyre useful ( very, if you keep them for a suprise) but easily countered once theyre in play.
I dont see the movement changes as being that big a nerf, so I didnt comment on them, but I just noticed the flak range increase with this post.
Why was this done? flak already has ample range (not talking about mobile flak here, i support the boost to make it the same as stationary)
As it is gunships are very easy to counter, a handfull of l1 fighters, a single LRMT, or a couple of flak guns can lay waste to swarms of them, just noone ever bothers to defend against them until it's too late....
Missile Truck range : 580/590.
Anyone want to vote on the flak change? Or... whatever... egar, what do you think? I think that flak/gunships are fine without the flak range increase, but not everyone agrees... any other opinions...?The anti swarm/bomber bonuses was extra damage against fighters/bombers respectively, so that doesnt affect gunships.
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I'm seriously considering just posting what I have done so far. Missing are the anti-air kbots, sea balance, amphibious balance, hover balance, everything else is done. Since the majority of maps don't have a lot of water, imbalance there isn't critical to the entire game, whereas land/air balance is critical to every single game played.
I'm probably going to fix up hover/amphibious, insert the anti-air kbots, and call it a release... sea balance... I don't know. I could probably work something up in a day or two if I can find a few spare hours. ... I have this week off work, so that'll give me a lot of free time to work on everything. Bah I don't know what to do. I also have to dedicate some more time to working on the last touches of a certain black project of mine that few of you know about.
Last edited by Caydr on 03 Sep 2006, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
I wouldnt change the movement specs of the gunships either caydr, like firecrack said, theyre easy to defend against already, its just alot of people forget to build aa atall and get smoked by 6 - 7 and say theyre unbalanced.
A load of defenders spaced around your base can beat off the first swarm, meanwhile you can get up something more substantial for the following attacks, I think gunship balance is bang on, it shouldnt be changed.
Very interested to see the mav changes, they sound like fun.
A load of defenders spaced around your base can beat off the first swarm, meanwhile you can get up something more substantial for the following attacks, I think gunship balance is bang on, it shouldnt be changed.
Very interested to see the mav changes, they sound like fun.
Well, you and egar agree and I know you both know your stuff. I'll set flak range back to how it was before, but I'm still going to boost mobile flak to how stationary flak is.
Sounds like this is more of an engine thing than an AA thing... I'm not sure what might be causing it, but at least it's just an annoyance.Kixxe wrote:Same with rockos and storms most of the time. I have made a habit of force firing just ahead of LLT's so storms won't wander into range... and i mean waayy into range. :/
I think the biggest problem with brawlers is that it is so easy to forget adequate AA. I mean even in the final game (or was it a semi final?) in the last tournament one of our top players lost to brawlers after not building AA.
How much scope would there be for boosting level 1 air without making it unbalanced? If level 1air was a more serious threat, more players would be forced to build AA earlier. I think very few players make much use of level 1 air. So often its build a con air, and build a level 2 factory. Then maybe build a few peepers for scouting, and some level 1 fighters for anti air.
Perhaps the level 1 brawler (banshee?) could use a buff. I see that unit used very rarely these days. And if it does come out early you can survive comfortably even if you haven't built any AA whatsoever. Simply have the commander stop in his tracks and build a few missile towers, and have the factory switch to jethroe/crasher. You'll be able to fight off the banshees comfortably without taking enough losses to make your opponents investment in an air factory pay off.
And level 1 bombers - I've been able to use them to take out a key guardian or level 1 factory on the odd occasion. But it always seems to be at the expense of setting my econ back a long way to have the level 1 air factory early in the first place. So if I'm lucky enough to do that amount of damage, I'm simply back on equal footing with my opponent, whereas if I don't take anything significant out, then I'm at a significant disadvantage.
Why do I build level 1 air at all? Because its fun, different, and in a 3 v 3 or more I think it is viable in being able to rush air to the help of an ally under pressure, and for air's scouting ability.
How much scope would there be for boosting level 1 air without making it unbalanced? If level 1air was a more serious threat, more players would be forced to build AA earlier. I think very few players make much use of level 1 air. So often its build a con air, and build a level 2 factory. Then maybe build a few peepers for scouting, and some level 1 fighters for anti air.
Perhaps the level 1 brawler (banshee?) could use a buff. I see that unit used very rarely these days. And if it does come out early you can survive comfortably even if you haven't built any AA whatsoever. Simply have the commander stop in his tracks and build a few missile towers, and have the factory switch to jethroe/crasher. You'll be able to fight off the banshees comfortably without taking enough losses to make your opponents investment in an air factory pay off.
And level 1 bombers - I've been able to use them to take out a key guardian or level 1 factory on the odd occasion. But it always seems to be at the expense of setting my econ back a long way to have the level 1 air factory early in the first place. So if I'm lucky enough to do that amount of damage, I'm simply back on equal footing with my opponent, whereas if I don't take anything significant out, then I'm at a significant disadvantage.
Why do I build level 1 air at all? Because its fun, different, and in a 3 v 3 or more I think it is viable in being able to rush air to the help of an ally under pressure, and for air's scouting ability.
L1 air is plenty effective. Look at some costs:
L1 air plant + 5 bombers: 1,500 metal, 54,825 energy
12 Hammers: 1452 metal, 26,520 energy
Guardian + HLT: 2,059 metal, 30,952 energy
5 bombers will take out a Guardian before your enemy has time to get missile towers up, and the fact that you've invested in air forces him to start building anti-air or die to a gunship rush. 12 hammers will probably be devoured by the HLT.
Add in Bladewings and Banshees (may not be amazing offensively, but are kings of defense), L1 fighters (kings of AA), L1 scout planes (missile bait, best scout unit in the game), L1 con aircraft (DT/reclaim) and you come out solidly ahead.
Most people just don't invest in any anti-air early enough, because they're used to thinking of air as "useless" or "unstoppable". Four MTs scattered around your main base will effectively prevent most early air raids from doing damage to it.
(Seriously. L1 bombers are hawt. Try them sometime. You have to know where your target is, but if they have an attack order from the moment they take off, they're scary.)
L1 air plant + 5 bombers: 1,500 metal, 54,825 energy
12 Hammers: 1452 metal, 26,520 energy
Guardian + HLT: 2,059 metal, 30,952 energy
5 bombers will take out a Guardian before your enemy has time to get missile towers up, and the fact that you've invested in air forces him to start building anti-air or die to a gunship rush. 12 hammers will probably be devoured by the HLT.
Add in Bladewings and Banshees (may not be amazing offensively, but are kings of defense), L1 fighters (kings of AA), L1 scout planes (missile bait, best scout unit in the game), L1 con aircraft (DT/reclaim) and you come out solidly ahead.
Most people just don't invest in any anti-air early enough, because they're used to thinking of air as "useless" or "unstoppable". Four MTs scattered around your main base will effectively prevent most early air raids from doing damage to it.
(Seriously. L1 bombers are hawt. Try them sometime. You have to know where your target is, but if they have an attack order from the moment they take off, they're scary.)