New Asteroid Map: Apophis v2

[Peet]

It's not an asteroid. It's an island.

Excellent argument, you fine gentleman. I am impressed.

[Otherside]

if you wanted to keep its visual integrity you wouldn't want 12 year old 3do models on it..

[CarRepairer]

I wanted to maintain its visual integrity.

I'd like to try to make a fair statement. Beherith wants to maintain his map's visual integrity. CA wants to maintain its game's gameplay integrity (meaning the game is played as defined by CA devs un-mutated unless defined as a different game). So there are only two choices that are fair: 1) CA is never played on the map (both CA and mapmaker lose out) or 2) A compromise is found. Let's hope for the latter.

[smoth]

if you wanted to keep its visual integrity you wouldn't want 12 year old 3do models on it..

Please stop making these kinds of posts. You didn't understand why people do not like you... this is why.

[Pxtl]

@CarRepairer

Really, that's why I think that CA should simply block this map with ValidMaps.Lua. Apophis' gameplay breaks CA. Since hacking around it would subvert Beherith's intentions, and allowing it creates broken games, the correct response is simply to mark the map as "don't play CA on this" using ValidMaps.

[CarRepairer]

@CarRepairer

Really, that's why I think that CA should simply block this map with ValidMaps.Lua. Apophis' gameplay breaks CA. Since hacking around it would subvert Beherith's intentions, and allowing it creates broken games, the correct response is simply to mark the map as "don't play CA on this" using ValidMaps.

As Licho said this is extra work for CA devs for each map release. Conversely a map can have a list of valid and invalid mods, and both map and mod lists can be combined to determine the final list.

[Neddie]

Let us set the visual point aside, there is no real debate there, and I would like to resolve this discussion.

I believe that in removing wind, the map modifies the gameplay, but it does not necessarily break it. Variation is why you have access to multiple maps to begin with, and I believe that CA would benefit from maps with different local modifications such as this one. Beherith had to do it in this way because CA does not support the normal method of map gameplay modification in this manner, but he has expressed willingness to work with the game designers to achieve this in another manner.

I was earlier discussing my desire to revisit my CA mapping project with lurker, with the caveat that there would be some way for my maps to opt out of the automatic scaling and other map-transforming lua when necessary, since they would already be scaled for CA and some would have delicate CA typemaps or terrain unsuitable for terraformation. I believe the solution to this entire debacle is in implementing some flags for maps intended to play with CA - but in a non-standard way - to do so, to the extent that they opt out of different elements of CA's structure.

[Google_Frog]

It seems this thread has been running in circles.

There's the people that don't play CA saying that 0 wind doesn't break CA and the occasional correction by CA players. The bottom line is that this map does not work for CA.

The way I see it we can't tell people not to make bad maps (for a certain game). Noone kicks up a fuss over Smoth's metal free maps, if Beherith had made a map with an unbelievably unplayable heightmap I don't think anyone would have tried to force him to make a better one.

Games can try and fix maps when they are almost playable (for example Geyser typemap) but obviously this one does not want to be fixed. I agree with validmods.lua (as there are more new maps than mods).

The only comprise I can see is replace windmills with something fluff friendly. Such as cosmic ray generators, a boring metal cube which we say is full of water to collect energy from the rays.

On a side note a map/mods ability to override each other's gadget's seems like a bug. There could be a situation where a map/mod accidentally causes a naming conflict.

[AF]

*looks at thread*

Oh dear lord, and I thought we had intelligent people on these forums

There is no wind in space, there isn't enough energy in solar wind to generate power, and it doesn't matter if you think of some fluff, it breaks immersion badly.

Rather than notice that beherith had to make use of a kludge work around to fix this, instead of providing an officially sanctioned solution, or using it as an excuse to add a space=1 tag, and add a replacement unit for space based maps that did the same thing but was far more believable, you attacked him and demanded he conformed to your standards.

You spent an obscene amount of time posting all of you, and you got nowhere but taking several steps back.

[smoth]

The way I see it we can't tell people not to make bad maps (for a certain game). Noone kicks up a fuss over Smoth's metal free maps . . . .

how nice of you.

[Pxtl]

*looks at thread*

Oh dear lord, and I thought we had intelligent people on these forums

There is no wind in space, there isn't enough energy in solar wind to generate power, and it doesn't matter if you think of some fluff, it breaks immersion badly.

Nobody complains about airplanes, S44 human soldiers, or ballistic artillery that doesn't reach escape velocity. Why is wind so special?

[luckywaldo7]

There is no wind in space

Since there is no atmosphere, we should also: Disable sounds. Disable any plane that uses wings or atmospheric air in its jet engine (anything with a visible air intake) and flying chickens. Reduce all AoE's, as there is no air to transmit the shockwave. Remove all distortion or flame effects from weapons. Remove flame weapons. Increase the range of lasers. Since the gravity is lower. All ballistic projectiles should fire further. All missile should not need to counteract gravity and thus fly further (assuming they are not using atmospheric air in their engines, or that they need their flights for stability, in which case they should be removed or go randomly off course after fire).
Thanks to whoever impliments this!

http://trac.caspring.org/ticket/1725


Everything that can be discussed has been discussed, just let it die already...

[AF]

The rest is explainable:

• Sounds can be simulated
• We already have fire underwater, and explosions in space, an atmosphere is not a pre-requisite for combustion
• etc etc

And s44 troops in space is just no go, its a bug in the game, just as wind in space is a bug in the game.

You can use whatever fluff you want to justify it, but the user wont know it, and you cant expect them to read a demurr 50 pages long before starting the game explaining the cannon that was made up to justify all these design decisions

[lurker]

There is no wind in space

Since there is no atmosphere, we should also: Disable sounds. Disable any plane that uses wings or atmospheric air in its jet engine (anything with a visible air intake) and flying chickens. Reduce all AoE's, as there is no air to transmit the shockwave. Remove all distortion or flame effects from weapons. Remove flame weapons. Increase the range of lasers. Since the gravity is lower. All ballistic projectiles should fire further. All missile should not need to counteract gravity and thus fly further (assuming they are not using atmospheric air in their engines, or that they need their flights for stability, in which case they should be removed or go randomly off course after fire).
Thanks to whoever impliments this!

http://trac.caspring.org/ticket/1725


Everything that can be discussed has been discussed, just let it die already...

Flying chickens already fly by magic, the map has a SEPARATE GRAVITY SETTING, most gun effects will still work, and [citation needed] on AoE.

Disabling planes like TA often did would be a fun change of pace.

[Gota]

Eventually it's not fair to demand behe to change his map for any reason and its not fair to ask CA devs to change CA to suit behe's desires.
It doesn't seem,at least on the surface,like both parties are interested in a compromise ATM.

Maybe it really is time to close this thread?
This conflict would have higher chances of getting solved in a flame free defused environment like pms or in some channel.

[Otherside]

I think arguing about fluff is pointless.

So what if theres US infantry using machine guns on an asteroid in space (make s44 not work on apophis if it bothers you so much) i think apophis would be a good S44 map.

Spring and its mods have always been fine with not being realistic i dunno why its such a big fuss now.

[Beherith]

I think the s44 has enough sense of visual coherence to play on apophis only as a joke.

[FLOZi]

I should write a gadget which gives all soldier models space helmets!

[Otherside]

meh

[Beherith]

*A is big robots fighting. S44 is ww2 simulation. I dont know what can even be remotely taken as a jab there. Unless your making an inflammatory statement just to gather responses.

Edit: yep, good edit, heres a cookie.