Updated site layout ready?

[SpikedHelmet]

Well, think of it as any other advertising ploy.

Spring in and of itself is not a useful product. It, like any unprocessed resource, requires further refinement and addition in order to turn it into a useful commodity. For instance, a company which specializes in producing leather is not going to fill its website up with pictures of leather strips hanging around; it's going to showcase plenty of pictures of products which leather can be made into, such as shoes, jackets, and things of the sort, and these products will play a prominant part in the advertising of the unprocessed leather.

Likewise, it is the games which are based on the Spring engine that is the entire reason for the Spring engine to exist. People aren't going to visit the website and say, "gee, this looks like a cool engine, I'll download it by itself." They're going to want to know what games they can play on it.

Which is why advertisement of said games ought to be a very important factor.

[Argh]

+1, that's pretty much my entire reasoning here. If Spring is supposedly just about "the engine", then it's just going to get pigeonholed forever as some sort of OTA-in-3D experience. Which has been the case over most of the project's history.

There just isn't any point in having my game up there, if people don't know it's not "Spring" but is something called "P.U.R.E.", and it's by somebody else- the website is there to tell people that I'm not just an extension of Spring, that Spring is not just one game, and that if you want to know more, you know where to find me.

I'm not in favor of anything that undermines this basic reality. Sure, we should not encourage people to do stuff that's terrifically tacky... but force them, based on our concept of what "tacky" means?

No way

Nobody should have that kind of power, in a project that's driven by a lot of people with many different objectives. I can understand wanting to keep stuff like banners really ultra-generic (note- this does not mean I'm at all in favor of just one approved image that blatantly favors my game, btw) but the Welcome area is by far the best place to talk directly to potential players about the game, while also showing everybody what the engine is capable of.

At any rate, I think we should get back to the banners as a topic. Does anybody have any new alternatives made? I'm going to take a whack at doing some stuff that's very similar to RoflCopter's, so I would like to know how much interest there would be in coming up with a template, etc...

[SwiftSpear]

Are we seriously arguing about the banner screenshots?

ffs. Yes you can have a URL (although I'm hoping fnord can add a little preface that art and gameplay content in the screenshot do not belong to spring but are executed on the spring engine). I really don't think an upper limit is necessary, but I'll make sure we try to put an even ammount of screenies in for most mods. The only determining factor is they aren't allowed to be ugly. We'll just not use them if they're ugly. I don't really care about fairness there.

I'm not concerned about scrolling screenshots clashing with the site design, I just don't want MSPaint text spam plastered on unspectacular screenshots.

[REVENGE]

Layout is fuckin' smooth. Good stuff.

[Warlord Zsinj]

Look, argh, I don't agree with you, but I've already stated my arguments, stating them further won't achieve anything.

Especially seeing as fnordia has clearly laid down the law.

[clumsy_culhane]

I think Fnordia should just implement it, almost anything is better than the current layout. Continuing this discussion and trying to please everyone will not work, there will always be things that people don't like, that they will have to learn to put up with.

I congratulate the efforts of those who are contributing content and time, and am looking forward to seeing the new website implemented

[Argh]

Look, argh, I don't agree with you, but I've already stated my arguments, stating them further won't achieve anything.

Especially seeing as fnordia has clearly laid down the law.

If Fnordia further alters my content, or you get your way, I will withdraw the rights to use my copyrighted content, WZ, and I will not be participating in this initiative.

You're being incredibly pushy about a font size, basically. Which is neither your place, nor something you should have any right to do.

This illustrates exactly why I'm taking a hard stance here.

[Warlord Zsinj]

Whatever Argh, I'm entitled to an opinion, and I've put it across. I stand by what I've said, and I think you're incorrect, which I'm equally entitled to do. Which is pretty much all you are doing, so I don't understand why you think you've got the moral highground here.

I wasn't implying that I was going to 'get my way', simply that arguing further is pointless because Fnordia has clearly stated his thoughts, which are pretty much unflinching, and fair enough, seeing as it is his site. I don't want to enter into further debate because it would be aimless, and I have better things to do with my time.

Someone give me a heads up when some sort of conclusion has been arrived at re: banner styles and I'll make up some IW ones.

[smoth]

it is only an opinion. Fnordia's opinion is the only one that matters. If he doesn't agree with any of us than tough shit. If you do not like it argh, fine pull your shots. If he agrees with you, fine, I don't care I am just saying that his opinion is all that matters here. You cannot strong arm him into it. The opinions stated are just that argh and if you do not agree with them you do not have to but do not expect people to change them because you threaten to pull your content.

[AF]

Can I make it clear that nobody ever stated officially that this was an 'Open source initiative' based website.

For one the source is unavailable.

I also think it would be more appropriate to leave the images with no logos and have the logos as separate images overlaid inside div containers so that they're clickable.

I'm also flabbergasted that your all arguing over a banner yet there are no images of any kind on the games page.

And argh why are you linking to an outdated site that relies on frame based navigation? You have typed more words in this thread than key presses necessary to implement fnordias entire template. Your also threatening to withdraw support as if the threat carries weight when tbh it carries very little weight. Nobody here carries enough power to pull off such a threat except fnordia himself, all it does is undermine yourself.

[Peet]

Can I make it clear that nobody ever stated officially that this was an 'Open source initiative' based website.

For one the source is unavailable.

And yeah, I plan to commit it to svn when it is deployed..

[AF]

so when it is deployed itll be an Open source initiative? Which begs the question:

Why do I see the old site infront of me?!?!?!?!?!?!

The only answer I can give is the following statement:

DEPLOY DEPLOY

[Wolf-In-Exile]

After reading through this thread, I must say i'm quite shocked at some people posting here.

The Spring engine is the sole reason why this community exists at all. All 3rd party work that exists here, both mods and games, are possible only because of the SY team.

How they want to design their site and what content they want to put on it is really none of any one else's business. They really don't owe the community at all. The community may contribute to the core development of the engine, but that hardly gives them authority to dictate what and how the developers want to do things.

To think otherwise is extremely arrogant, and frankly insulting to the Spring devs. They have invested more time on Spring than anyone here, and have done so with little complaint despite totally having no obligation to do so.

I've been a part of the OTA community since the beginning, when Cavedog was still alive and I still remember waiting anxiously for new downloadable units from their website even though I lurked most of the time. I've been following the progress of TA Spring from its infancy as a 3D replay application, I still remember the old Clan SY site with the funny moose on it; i've followed it long after Unreal Annihilation died. And I still follow Spring today, having cast off the 'TA' prefix which it was born with. And I haven't forgotten who are the people who made all this possible.

Most if not all the major mods and games which rely on the Spring engine have their own websites already, so I don't see why the main Spring - Clan YankerSpankers has any obligation or need to pimp their work. To have your work even briefly mentioned to on their site because they choose to is an honour and a priviledge, not the other way around. Remember that.

[AF]

I still think that neglecting your websites, the most effective gateway to your content, in favour of a small banner on the spring front page which may or may not be shown based on a random function, is counter-productive at best.

[Peet]

so when it is deployed itll be an Open source initiative? Which begs the question:

Why do I see the old site infront of me?!?!?!?!?!?!

The only answer I can give is the following statement:

DEPLOY DEPLOY

I do believe fnord is being smart enough to wait until it's 100% finished and refined, to give it a clean launch. NASA didn't launch Apollo 11 until they were sure they could keep a man alive on the moon.

[Warlord Zsinj]

You're just opening yourself up for a 'it's not rocket science' gag there peet

(I didn't say it! ¬_¬)

[Wolf-In-Exile]

AF: As you all probably have read through the pages and pages of "debate" in this thread, I think you can agree the community should not (and does not) have any say over this matter, period. They can keep their opinions and ambitions to themselves.

And everyone else: fnordia has already made it very clear, and said all that needed to be heard plus being very nice about it, but he was judiciously ignored for the most part.

Matters like this are not open to community debate, and as this thread has colourfully illustrated, too many cooks do indeed spoil the soup. I'm not even going to put forth my own suggestions and opinions since this thread is already inflamed like many previous community 'efforts', and nothing can be properly discussed or resolved here.

[Argh]

Can I make it clear that nobody ever stated officially that this was an 'Open source initiative' based website.

Well, it's an Open Source project. It should be treated that way, imo. We're all stakeholders here, and this effects all of us.

I also think it would be more appropriate to leave the images with no logos and have the logos as separate images overlaid inside div containers so that they're clickable.

No, because the div will always be too large or too small, or get put into the wrong relative position. And, if forced to a certain size, it'd just look terrible. Better to just have a hotspot on the upper-right of a fixed-pixel size and let people choose how to depict it themselves, than using some god-awful PNG when it's a massive waste of bandwidth and will not work right, ever.

And argh why are you linking to an outdated site that relies on frame based navigation?

This is the kind of elitist nonsense that makes me completely distrust everything you say about this topic.

Your also threatening to withdraw support as if the threat carries weight when tbh it carries very little weight. Nobody here carries enough power to pull off such a threat except fnordia himself, all it does is undermine yourself.

This is a matter of principle, AF.

I've already had my work trashed, then censored in a futile attempt to make people happy. If Fnordia was not a dev., I'd have ripped him a new one over that, but I've been trying to be patient and let things go where they need to.

There are very clear limits, though, beyond which I'm just helping some elitists look good, at the expense of all of the little guys.

I mean, where does this end, AF? Next, we'll tell newbies like Hoi that they cannot show their games, because "the images are not of a professional quality in our opinions", etc.

It's just a terrible idea, period. It reeks of moral certitude and central planning, when the reality is that the actual project is a collective that operates symbiotically without any real control other than feedback from all parties, whether it's game designers responding to players or developers responding to bug reports.

It is... basically, it's the antithesis of what Spring means, at least to me. I'm not here to make a few developers look good. I'm here to make games I like to play. Why is my work any less important than other people's? Why should I have the right to make that determination about somebody else's work, either?

There's no end to that slippery slope, AF- it always ends with a dead 'site. Better ugly anarchy than pretty death.


@Wolf:

Your argument basically says that all of us who have outlasted the devs, whose ideas are part of the fabric of the entire engine, are just second-class citizens, chumps who should be glad to get a meagre handout.

I reject that point of view entirely.

I'm a copyright-holder on Spring, so are most of the major game developers here. I've written code and made content, as so many have, and have done a huge amount of work to promote the project's goals, such as building the first GPL-compliant game.

The relationship is and has always been a symbiotic one, since SJ GPL'd the engine.

I don't work for the SYs, and they don't work for me- we are all here because it's to our mutual advantage. I could be working on a commercial engine right now, and get more players and more props, but I've stayed here because I really believe in Spring's promise and goals.

All I'm asking for is that we not break that compact, which has been so successful, to appease a few whiny people who will never be pleased, no matter how far backwards people bend for them. That we're all allowed to contribute, and that nobody will get to censor others, no matter how slick their reasoning. That every newbie is treated with respect, because they'll be the experts some day, carrying the project into the future.

Acting as if we're just losers who should be glad to get what we can... destroys this project, and trashes the ideals that have built it and sustained it, imo.

[Wolf-In-Exile]

Your argument basically says that all of us who have outlasted the devs, whose ideas are part of the fabric of the entire engine, are just second-class citizens, chumps who should be glad to get a meagre handout.

You have misread my meaning and missed the point of what I said. And the SY team have made very generous concessions to the community, concessions that are being taken for granted.

I'm a copyright-holder on Spring, so are most of the major game developers here. I've written code and made content, as so many have, and have done a huge amount of work to promote the project's goals, such as building the first GPL-compliant game.

GPL-ing the game doesn't change the fact that the main engine developers are the main stakeholders and copyright owners here. Nor does contributing code to the core engine give game developers any say in what the SY team chooses to do with their time, their projects and their resources.

What you benefit from is have total control over your own projects, you get to use their engine code, you get to contribute to the development if you so wish and participate in the community. They and anyone else don't get to dictate what you put on your personal sites and they don't get to tell you what to do with your time or resources.

I don't work for the SYs, and they don't work for me- we are all here because it's to our mutual advantage.

If you are contributing code, you are working for them. They most certainly worked for you by providing you a base to expand your goals. And like I said before, they don't get to dictate how you manage your projects just because you are using their engine, and vice versa.

Acting as if we're just losers who should be glad to get what we can... destroys this project, and trashes the ideals that have built it and sustained it, imo.

Does being thankful and respecting others make one a loser? I'd think that as someone who has benefitted greatly from the Spring engine you'd have much more gratitude and respect for the people making it for you for free, and who continue to do so despite being taken for granted.
And ideals? This engine did not start under GPL ideals, it was built and sustained long before any talk of GPL was ever dreamt of. The ideals the TA Spring engine was founded upon are very different from the notion of any license, GPL or otherwise.

The entire OTA mod community survived for years and still survives without all this licensing debacle, despite creating enormous amounts of code and content that Spring game devs can only dream about, and in part is due to people giving their time and effort freely into a passion and sharing it with others with no strings attached.

Look at what this community has become when licensing gets thrown into it. People fighting over scripts, models and what have you, even engaging is pointless pissing matches over whose mod is more popular, and now people are arguing over the developer's own, personal website.

While licensing might be a good idea, the presence of it here has caused an atmosphere of spite, selfishness, distrust and general unpleasantness in the community. This engine, the entire TA Spring community was not built with GPL or any license, period.

Wishing for a instant transition of the community and the code whose foundations were essentially built upon the OTA mod community, just because the devs declared the engine GPL is unrealistic. It will take years for the gears to shift.

If you're so intent on open source engines that were built upon the foundations of GPL, Spring is not the best choice, in fact, a rather bad choice given its history. There are many other open source engines available whose engine code and communities are built around such licenses. The TA Spring Engine is not one of them.

[Forboding Angel]

TO throw my hat in the ring... I agree with argh here.

Also, wolf. THere is not an open source RTS engine listed in the first three pages of that search. And if you so much as search for them, you will find that the alternatives are simply laughable.