Spring RTS Engine

mongus · Post by **mongus** » 06 Oct 2006, 02:16

Its actually 3 crashers per zipper.

The mentioned advantage of zippers:

speed, fine fire power and strength.

Is more decisive in big maps, why?

well, mainly because you can "move" more firepower to destiny (enemy) faster.

If you are using peewees instead, there is a bigger chance of finding a bigger/better/well organized defense when reaching destiny.

On smaller maps, the ability of sorting out the land between you and your opponent fast is less relevant, as the gained time/[dmg/s] is less, and a well managed peewee can do much more damage (has higher Dm/s than zipper), per a much lower cost.

what has the cost to do with it?, well if resources are an issue, cost should aswell be. (look at common abuse reasons 1.b to see why "the cost" loses relevance at times).

This is true for panthers and spiders aswell.

you may note that specifically this units have a high damage/s, and high speed.

As you invest in "anti zipper" defense, you shall aswell get some type of reward.

- Stronger Base defense of your base. (got that?)
You only need few higher level defenses (as HLT's) to "upgrade" your inbase defense level, as a hole.
This is good, as you are covered against fast units like warriors, in your hole base with few more investment.

- some extra metal of zipper corpses
Reclaiming/using reclaimed metal must be a priority.

Some characteristics , that ive personally noted on people that "rushes" spiders or panther or zippers.. is poor base defense.

If you attack, even with few spare units, you have a high chance of making a good deal of damage.

why? this is true because the micro, and the extra metal/energy/buildtime that "fast" units cost, are NOT spent in base defense/micro/buildtime.

Finally, this sort of zipper/spider etc abuse, happens in:

1) maps that:
a: are too big for the number of players.
This is a VERY common mistake, and a ballast of the spring comunty as a hole*.
b: have too much metal/energy in them, and encourage porking and porcing (for those who know the buildtree).
Excess of metal and energy, create an excess of "buildtime" neccesity, thus converge to porking. May not be true in all cases, but porking STINKS, and what is the fun of buildqueuewarsanyhow?

2) to new players (newbs).
guys that dont know how to place a llt, or get basic base defense fast.

Would love to have good replays to analize this.

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 06 Oct 2006, 02:17

Don't forget to fix the anni so it fires automatically - this behavior changed in the most recent spring release.

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 06 Oct 2006, 02:23

i havent 4gotton but thanks

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 06 Oct 2006, 02:39

Personally i think the zippers r just a fracktion over powered. However using them on ANNY map has its drawbacks. The hole `issue` of the idea of nefing the zip was to encouradge nooblings to xta. We all know a well aimed dgun shot can save ur day, put the enemy in a big negative slope (due to time and energy put into zips) AND that to retaliate FAST it the best counter meassure. Keeping the zipps moving out of chassing com and a crasher or rocko for instance takes quite alot of micro, and this also DOES slow down the enemy eco growth at the start of game.
The nerf is only to make xta more forgiving at the start of a game, and currantly IS to powerfull.Mob rushing is a gd tacktick l8 in game as ivory king mentioned, but does little damadge to a well manadged base.And im saying that from experiance. XHC clan used to zip mob Barto myg and I l8 in game and if lucky they could take out a moho. They make gr8 flanking units in LVL1 but l8 in game r best replaced with lightning tanks or pyros.Both FAST and STONGER units.
1)A regen rate nerf to stop repeated hit n run tacktick.
2)maybe tiny health nerf 10% ?
3)Weapon damadge nefe 10% ?

Changes may occure post beta results

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 06 Oct 2006, 03:46

i reckons definitely regen nerf, probably weapon dmg, and maybe health.
Thanks mong for a well thought out and informative post (as usual).
Incidentally, how come its not unusual to see zipper swarms, but its rare to see fleas doing the same thing? I suppose T1 kbot + 1 fark= zipper spam, as opposed to tying up a T2 lab to do much the same thing, but fleas are so cool!

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 06 Oct 2006, 13:10

Min3mat wrote:
4 max will beat a single zipper (most common) rush,
ah kk
so wasting time and extra metal on crashers leaves you better off than the rusher? he takes. the initiative. he also by doing so robs you of time to react and of course the time it takes to MAKE those crashers. And he also has more metal (not sure bout the energy, but the metal is what counts almost all the way through!). He also gets scouting info on what you are doign (being a f**king idiot) and can react (steal the entire map and never attack you again) and win easily. Oh yeah brilliant counter mate. Almost as good as the 'he's building MT forests, lets send in units one by one and then let him suck up the metal! it will....lure him...off his guard...hmmmmmmmmmm'

+1

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 06 Oct 2006, 13:15

thanks for the support iv0ry. also another advantage is zippers low metal cost meaning the corpses is worth not very much at all.
Don't nerf zippers, they are already counterable and changing the gameplay of a mod to suit noobs is just... >.<

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 06 Oct 2006, 14:38

And what would u suggest Min3mat??

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 06 Oct 2006, 16:54

Remember, crashers are also getting significantly nerfed. A zipper nerf really has to happen, or zippers will be the only viable early starategy, and a strategy that newbs can't use or counter effectively.

Give 'em about 150 hp. A zipper rush could still be done, but it would be very difficult to do a devastating zipper rush.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 06 Oct 2006, 18:36

In relation to your zipper problems. I have only some basic academic knowledge of how XTA plays, but I know that it has non-beam lasers. Maybe you could increase the speed that lasers move at, and this would make it easier to hit zippers?

Foe OfTheBee wrote:Don't forget to fix the anni so it fires automatically - this behavior changed in the most recent spring release.

Noautofire=1; does this. Remove it.

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 07 Oct 2006, 16:34

150 wow easy tiger.We want to weaken them not render them usless!
After a lil look see, the differences betweek core and arm fast weapons are nuts.

Arm: 750hp Weapon damadge=34 BuildCostEnergy=2450;
BuildCostMetal=170;

Core: 870hp Weapon damadge=42 BuildCostEnergy=2658;
BuildCostMetal=175;

Some what crazy if u ask me.

***********************I have changed*************************

Core: 760hp Weapon damadge=34

with the 2 following tags on both units...

IdleAutoHeal=5;
healtime=60;

((THE RANGE IS NOT TO BE NERFED))

These tags mean that the FAST weapons i.e Freaker and Zipper, will take 2x the amount of time b4 self regeneration + heal 1/2 of what they used to.
......What will this do 2 the units in game?
The fast weapons will now be a much more hit and run unit.No more charging throught the frun line, w8n it out for 2 min then tearing up the insides of an enemy base. This `should` create an equalibrium between the 2 factions and also give the attacked enemy time to hunt down a weekend fast weapon.This of cource will be finalised come the beta testing.

Also GOOD NEWS

I have sorted out the radar of all the units, using the default icons Coloblind has issued.Neither i or Noruas (who is doint his own mod) can get custom radar icons to work properly.Which means im not going mad or stupid, bothe good things.

**__AND BAD NEWS__**

Noruas has rased the issue of the vehicles lvl1 problems. The aa units r 100 less hp's.Im asking all of u to go find me the exact porblems with the lvl1 vehicles apart from slasher+ samson.IS there annything that needs drastick changing?? Should the sasons and slashers be upgraded 100hp's eaven though they have bonus attack vs Brawler Rapiers???

FEEDBACK GIMMY GIMMY GIMMY

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 07 Oct 2006, 16:38

Vehicles 100hp's less than kbot AA * (soz kinda drowsy)

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 07 Oct 2006, 18:48

V's have less mobility than kbots and higher costs.. i thought the idea was that they made up for this with heavier armour. V should have 100 MORE not less imo. this would make it viable to start V and forgo zippers (yay).

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 07 Oct 2006, 19:20

http://replays.unknown-files.net/replay.php?id=45

Check out what happens in this replay - zippers need more of a nerf. 150 might be too little, but they should be significantly easier to kill.

Noruas · Post by **Noruas** » 07 Oct 2006, 20:22

Doomsday machines dont auto target.

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 07 Oct 2006, 21:26

Foe OfTheBee wrote:http://replays.unknown-files.net/replay.php?id=45

Check out what happens in this replay - zippers need more of a nerf. 150 might be too little, but they should be significantly easier to kill.

Zippers totaly ruined that game. Completely.

In a map like that, zipers/freakers is absolutely the only way to go!
It is quite open and impossible to defend properly.
It is very windy meaning that if one goes wind unharmed while the other goes solar to not be vulnerable to zippers, it will be in great advantage.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 07 Oct 2006, 21:45

BTW, whats the new counter to zippers/freakers in the new version where missle units do like 1/2 damage. they were ineffective before, but in v8, what actually does counter them in the first minute and then the big group in the 7 minute mark. and when I say what counters them, i mean counters them
a) COST EFFECTIVELY
b) MICRO EFFECTIVELY
C) does not stop the player under attack from expanding and playing properly ie: covering your base in turrets is not a boss solution

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 08 Oct 2006, 00:56

if aa kbots get nerfed zippers need nerf imo.

I know this could go down like a certain 70's rock group, but how about a small speed nerf?

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 08 Oct 2006, 14:17

After some thought i do not thing vehicle beefing will be included in this update. Theres been enough work done so far to give mongus a hart attack, let alone my poor acking head. We all want a newer vertion out a.s.a.p mainly just to crush the damn crasher spam and spidar nerf.
I am going to look into the pulvarisers and its counterpart coz quite frankly they should not be nerfed.(Well spotted Ivory)

THE DDM AND ANNI NOW HAVE AUTOFIRE!!! Calm down that is now fixed roflmao.

Today ive yet to include Noruas's new flak effect, make a change log, make desitions on the fast weapons and fix the metalpershot=1000 (well they r 50%bigger)

Hopefully this will work as BuildCostMetal=1000 just screwed it up totally.

(As i said this is ALL NEW TO ME! And i seem to be doing it on my own as myg n barto r to bussey working, which is understandable)

p.s
FOE has offered to take a look into the icon system for me.Hopfully if he work some magic on it for me we all can have UBER COOL icons for the coms and the nuke silo's.

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:34

!!!RAWR!!! go go myg super power!!!!

roflmao

After the aa nerfing the pulverisers and defender (lvl1 defence towers) also got nerfed.Simply inserting a new weapon turned out to b a seriouse pain!

It appears there is some limitation on the amount of weapons u can have in the weapons.tdf. I have taken out [gasbag] (ive never seen one in spring, ota yes but not here)

Ive been banging my head trying to get this working, but after picking at myg's big fat juicy brain i got the good ol defenders n pulvarisers working as they should be.

Spring RTS Engine

XTA

gah