Idea for anti-cheating program

Tangaroa · Post by **Tangaroa** » 29 Apr 2005, 02:04

I fail to understand how having different models and textures, particularly textures (I suppose units may be more visible with larger models, but they will be uglier too), could have any significant benifit in game play.

web · Post by **web** » 29 Apr 2005, 02:23

I've only played one game of TA Spring (Planning to play many more when I get home), and two games of OTA years ago. So I'm not really sure that it would/wouldn't matter if an opponent had different models/textures.

I'm just making the assumption that someone could gain an advantage by making the models/textures of important units a brighter color, so that they would be able to find units to command or to attack faster.

Since this wouldn't be something their opponent even knows they are doing, it wouldn't really be fair.

And there'd be no harm in telling the people they were playing with that they're using custom models/textures so that they can decide for themselves if it matters or not.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 29 Apr 2005, 02:32

The best sort of security isn't any one method, but an umbrella of many different types of anti-hacking measures that each do a little part.

Quite simply, the easiest way to prevent cheating is to play only with people you know and love, ha.

The one concern i have about a closed-source so-called "nonessential" program is that even though it may be "technically" nonessential, it will become more or less a de facto standard over time, and people will most certainly over-rely on it over time, thereby permitting any hacker or cheater an even greater layer of protection because peopel think they are using a "safe" application when in fact it may have been compromised.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 29 Apr 2005, 05:10

web wrote:I'm just making the assumption that someone could gain an advantage by making the models/textures of important units a brighter color, so that they would be able to find units to command or to attack faster.

It's possible in OTA too. And in every major First Person Shooter. Some pro gamers even use it without it being considered cheating. I'm not endorsing it, just saying that brightskin aren't even considered cheats most of the time by pros.

Redfish · Post by **Redfish** » 29 Apr 2005, 13:02

I hope this will not turn out as counter strike. Besides Most games i play are with ppl i know for a long time, so I know they don't cheat. Not really an issue for me, but could be good for all those newbs out there who don't feel like learning TA to win a game.

Tangaroa · Post by **Tangaroa** » 29 Apr 2005, 13:15

People are more likely to use altered textures for aesthetic/humor reasons, like perhaps replacing the core camo textures with leopard or zebra textures and replacing the arm camo textures with tiger or giraffe textures.

coryrc · Post by **coryrc** » 01 May 2005, 23:20

I think I have an easy solution:
Require a $2 donation for each account to TASpring that will be used for bounties for features people want.

Not enough money to bother anyone, especially since it goes to a good cause. Just keep it <= $5 and I don't think people will complain.

Dwarden · Post by **Dwarden** » 02 May 2005, 03:14

coryrc wrote:I think I have an easy solution:
Require a $2 donation for each account to TASpring that will be used for bounties for features people want.

Not enough money to bother anyone, especially since it goes to a good cause. Just keep it <= $5 and I don't think people will complain.

and You think that stop cheating? (/me looks at 50USD cheated titles) ...

Ace07 · Post by **Ace07** » 02 May 2005, 03:34

Your best bet is trying to stop people who download hacks that other people make. You literally can't stop hackers who know what they are doing. What you are trying to stop is the people who download the hacks and use them without any knowledge of how a computer works. (ie uber nubs)

Dwarden · Post by **Dwarden** » 02 May 2005, 03:46

Ace07 wrote:Your best bet is trying to stop people who download hacks that other people make. You literally can't stop hackers who know what they are doing. What you are trying to stop is the people who download the hacks and use them without any knowledge of how a computer works. (ie uber nubs)

that mean stop so called public cheats ...

there is nearly no chance to have cheat free gaming world ... that's like trying to stop all crime in world...

Ace07 · Post by **Ace07** » 02 May 2005, 03:46

Dwarden wrote:
Ace07 wrote:Your best bet is trying to stop people who download hacks that other people make. You literally can't stop hackers who know what they are doing. What you are trying to stop is the people who download the hacks and use them without any knowledge of how a computer works. (ie uber nubs)
that mean stop so called public cheats ...

there is nearly no chance to have cheat free gaming world ... that's like trying to stop all crime in world...

Indeed, that is why I said what I said above. Your best bet is targeting stuff that does get released publicly. The private stuff is impossible to stop.

coryrc · Post by **coryrc** » 02 May 2005, 06:09

Dwarden wrote:
coryrc wrote:Require a $2 donation
and You think that stop cheating? (/me looks at 50USD cheated titles) ...

Well, this eliminates your concern over 1000's of accounts being easily made; coupled with a rating/after-game-check system should help. It's a good thing for the game even if it doesn't work.

10053r wrote:However, what stops people from doing this on ebay where it matters?

EBay "works" because it costs some money every time you sell something to improve your rating.

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 02 May 2005, 06:42

If it becomes a major problem perhaps we can have a blacklist of ip's of cheaters.

renrutal · Post by **renrutal** » 02 May 2005, 08:06

Just to remind some people here, the code is open-sourced, so any tentative of your program be a smartass and try to discover cheaters by doing magical tricks with the other clients will be pretty much inneffective. Well, that if the anti-cheat program isn't a third party attached program. Dunno how even the license used in Spring manages that case.

Secondly, all what we will try to do here against cheating will not be through obfuscation of code, but it will be using secure methods of programming and secure network transmission validation.

So far the best method we have against cheating, and probably the easiest and most effective is we just play with trusted players. Too bad it's only effective in discrete cases.

So, before anything, I suggest you all to look for implemented solutions, preferably with a license compatible with Spring's. I'm sure this is not the first game tryng to implement this or even the first open-sourced game to try this. I'm also sure that the answer is out there, don't be afraid to bring them here, suggest things from other projects.

Please do not reinvent the wheel.

Tsumari · Post by **Tsumari** » 03 May 2005, 05:41

Cheaters? *Shrug* Unless the server adds auto matchmaking I'm not really worried about this - Ta is best played with friends anyway.

Tsumari

el_muchacho · Post by **el_muchacho** » 04 May 2005, 23:00

For those who say that the best way to avoid cheating is to play with people they know, I agree, but this still prevents one fun concept, namely the Ladder.
There is no point having a single server if there is no Ladder. Better play in a LAN if you only play with your friends.

And since the main programmer of PhoenixWorks is now working on the client software, it would be a shame if he had to drop the great Ladder of the PhoenixWorks.
And if there is a Ladder, there must be no cheater.

web wrote:I've been thinking about this problem for a while.

I think I have a solution to both the cheating problem and the player modifications problem.

I thought about the problem and I came to the same solution, but with a minor adjustment. The closed source anti-cheating program could calculate the MD5 hash on a number of strategic, or random parts of the executable, say from byte N to byte P, N and P being decided by the central server. That means that a cheater would be discovered only after a few games, and not right away. But it would make the calculation faster, and it would make it very difficult for the cheater to return the right hash, since the hash would change at every game.

Now, that a cheater be discovered only after a few games wouldn't be too dramatic in a Ladder, I believe. As soon he is discovered, the right sanction would be applied.

Now if you combine :
- this system for detecting modified execs,
- an after game "replay" or much more simply a comparison of hashes calculated on the TA recorder data, by the same anti-cheating program (I believe that's what is done by PhoenixWorks),
- a system of trust a la eBay,
- a list of banned IP,
Each system has its own weaknesses but the combination of them would be pretty discouraging, I think.

Dwarden · Post by **Dwarden** » 05 May 2005, 06:14

Banned IPs? You think it's effective ? Give me break ... Most of cheaters today sit on ISP with dynamic IP ranges (modem, cable, ADSL etc) ...

You need real way how made unique ID for each client and using hardware sn is most effective ...

There is nothing else what can't be easily faked or changed (IP? ... lol , MAC? ... rofl , OS serialnumber? ...haha etc)

and at end of time You will be back with combination of HDD & co. serial numbers ...

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra · Post by **[K.B.] Napalm Cobra** » 05 May 2005, 07:09

How about we just stuff their computers.

el_muchacho · Post by **el_muchacho** » 05 May 2005, 10:10

Dwarden wrote:Banned IPs? You think it's effective ? Give me break ... Most of cheaters today sit on ISP with dynamic IP ranges (modem, cable, ADSL etc) ...

You need real way how made unique ID for each client and using hardware sn is most effective ...
...

Yes, I agree with you.

But is it possible to get the SN of the processor easily without having to open its computer ?

Dwarden · Post by **Dwarden** » 05 May 2005, 15:16

Who said SN of processor ? but if CPU have it readable why not ...

You have serial numbers in HDD firware (some of drives got non rewriteable ones or nearly impossible to change as firmware need special service interface (approx 1 person of million know how) these ...

You have serial numbers in firmware of CD/DVD drivers and burners, You have serial numbers in Video and Audio card firmware and so on ...

combining them with logic and correctly can produce unique maschine identification ... you can even reach stage where exchanging e.g. one hdd will not help cheater to get around hardware ban ...

Spring RTS Engine

Idea for anti-cheating program

Easy solution

Re: Easy solution

Re: Easy solution