You can't kill the Messiah...
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Known by few, I was a pretty big C&C fan right up until the release of generals. My fanboyism for the original westwood was pretty obsessive, I worked on several mods for Redalert, Tiberian Sun, and Red Alert II.. I also was an official beta tester for Renegade..
That said, I'm not feeling C&C3.. maybe due to two vowels. The storyline is also a total bandwagon jump-on, EA is not paying attention to any of the little story tidbits that Westwoods TS and Firestorm left behind.
Just recently and only due to fan protests was blue tiberium added back in, and that's just blue tiberium, in firestorm there was all sorts of weird Tiberium fuana, trees, etc.
It's pretty much a franchise resurrection stunt.
That said, I'm not feeling C&C3.. maybe due to two vowels. The storyline is also a total bandwagon jump-on, EA is not paying attention to any of the little story tidbits that Westwoods TS and Firestorm left behind.
Just recently and only due to fan protests was blue tiberium added back in, and that's just blue tiberium, in firestorm there was all sorts of weird Tiberium fuana, trees, etc.
It's pretty much a franchise resurrection stunt.
Remember, the "actor" who plays Kane was the movie director of Westwood. I think he has a pretty good idea of what he was going for.
I don't know why people complain much about Generals. Yes, the setting is lame and the final patch still left many bugs unresolved but other than that it's probably the best C&C. No more monolithic building is a plus, not a drawback.
I don't know why people complain much about Generals. Yes, the setting is lame and the final patch still left many bugs unresolved but other than that it's probably the best C&C. No more monolithic building is a plus, not a drawback.
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Drone_Fragger
- Posts: 1341
- Joined: 04 Dec 2005, 15:49
The other factions didn't exactly have many attack units either.
From a preview article:
Nod is a two-tiered faction whose followers include both mobs of loyal followers with low-tech weaponry and small, highly trained companies of career soldiers equipped with the highest of high-tech weaponry, including powerful experimental weapons technology that hasn't been fully safety-tested yet.
Way to rip off the Consortium faction from Act of War. Of course the unit descriptions that follow sound just like standard C&C so it may just be the writer overemphasizing that.
From a preview article:
Nod is a two-tiered faction whose followers include both mobs of loyal followers with low-tech weaponry and small, highly trained companies of career soldiers equipped with the highest of high-tech weaponry, including powerful experimental weapons technology that hasn't been fully safety-tested yet.
Way to rip off the Consortium faction from Act of War. Of course the unit descriptions that follow sound just like standard C&C so it may just be the writer overemphasizing that.
In the name of Kane!
EA is making a classic Command & Conquer game, everything you hate and love about it is back. And yes, it uses the MCV system, which has its advantages and disadvantages over the Starcraft builder system.
If we ignore that though, Generals is pretty much just a patriotic Starcraft clone. If I wanted to play Starcraft, I'd play Starcraft, without the whole "The US saves the day" plot too, rather than buying a Command & Conquer game.
EA is making a classic Command & Conquer game, everything you hate and love about it is back. And yes, it uses the MCV system, which has its advantages and disadvantages over the Starcraft builder system.
People are complaining about Command & Conquer: Generals because the bolded part isn't really in the game. Just the title. The actual gameplay is a Starcraft clone (and I don't mean the building system alone), far from C&C. The factions are not from any C&C universe. There's no live action FMVs.And worst of all, Kane isn't there. Though, he was lacking in Red Alert 2 and Yuri's revenge too. People might also hate it because it's made by EA, those people I'll agree are stupid.I don't know why people complain much about Generals.
If we ignore that though, Generals is pretty much just a patriotic Starcraft clone. If I wanted to play Starcraft, I'd play Starcraft, without the whole "The US saves the day" plot too, rather than buying a Command & Conquer game.
Generals' combat feels a lot like Red Alert 2's, Dune 2000's or Emperor's to me (haven't played the others recently enough to make more comparisons). Certainly nothing like Starcraft. It has all the standard behaviours like cannons doing little against infantry while machineguns work, planes starting from their base and having limited ammo, the tech center (instead of upgrading your main building, even), tanks running over infantry, etc. The only big changes were the build system, the ressource system and allowing unit upgrades. Those have been standard in RTSes for a long time now. The general specialities added a nice twist although they didn't appear very balanced to me.
Yeah, because the standard RTS *IS* a Starcraft clone because of its success.KDR_11k wrote:Those have been standard in RTSes for a long time now.
Generals had by far more in common with Starcraft than any of the Command & Conquer games in any case.
Ignoring the interface, 3D graphics, ability to build multiple superweapons, view limits, general special abilites and the removal of live action FMVs, I see?The only big changes were the build system, the ressource system and allowing unit upgrades.
Not to mention the huge differences in the units and structures themselves and the way the factions are balanced.
The faction balancing reminds me more of Emperor than Star Craft (I use Emperor because that had more distinct factions than Dune 2). Which was based on Dune 2 which obviously wasn't based on Warcraft. The structures and build order was very much like earlier C&Cs. And I think some of the mission briefings used live-action "news broadcasts".
3d graphics were just a normal improvement. TS used semi-3d graphics AFAIK (that voxel crap they hyped so much) and Emperor had them a long time ago. General abilities were new but they definitely weren't lifted from Starcraft. Limiting LOS to the areas you are currently observing was an option in some earlier C&C games as well IIRC, at least it's a feature that was missing in other earlier C&Cs since it made recon way too easy.
Starcraft also has many traditional WC features like the food limit, the selection limit, melee units and the upgrading main building. Starcraft has no superweapons, at least not in the sense of "fire anywhere". Starcraft doesn't have the infantry-vehicle split C&C uses. Starcraft's buildings have HUGE hitpoint numbers.
Generals is as much of a Starcraft clone as TA. Sure, some features were taken from SC but that doesn't make it a clone. Should you keep using an archaic system just because your competitor already used the better one?
3d graphics were just a normal improvement. TS used semi-3d graphics AFAIK (that voxel crap they hyped so much) and Emperor had them a long time ago. General abilities were new but they definitely weren't lifted from Starcraft. Limiting LOS to the areas you are currently observing was an option in some earlier C&C games as well IIRC, at least it's a feature that was missing in other earlier C&Cs since it made recon way too easy.
Starcraft also has many traditional WC features like the food limit, the selection limit, melee units and the upgrading main building. Starcraft has no superweapons, at least not in the sense of "fire anywhere". Starcraft doesn't have the infantry-vehicle split C&C uses. Starcraft's buildings have HUGE hitpoint numbers.
Generals is as much of a Starcraft clone as TA. Sure, some features were taken from SC but that doesn't make it a clone. Should you keep using an archaic system just because your competitor already used the better one?
The Dune games aren't C&C games though. Oddly enough, they still had more in common with C&C than the supposed "C&C" Generals.
I was talking about the "limit zoom so people with worse computers won't get a disadvantage". Which, judging from Starcraft's FAQ, was present even then. Good thing Total Annihilation lets you play at 1600x1200 if you wish.
Don't even dare compare that to Command & Conquer.And I think some of the mission briefings used live-action "news broadcasts".
Earlier C&Cs? Red Alert had fog of war as an option. I'm not sure if the Dos version of the original did though. If you're thinking about my limiting view point though, that wasn't related to fog of war, at all.Limiting LOS to the areas you are currently observing was an option in some earlier C&C games as well IIRC, at least it's a feature that was missing in other earlier C&Cs since it made recon way too easy.
I was talking about the "limit zoom so people with worse computers won't get a disadvantage". Which, judging from Starcraft's FAQ, was present even then. Good thing Total Annihilation lets you play at 1600x1200 if you wish.
Better being quite subjective. And Total Annihilation had more differences. That, and it couldn't be a clone of Starcraft, being released a year before it and all.Generals is as much of a Starcraft clone as TA. Sure, some features were taken from SC but that doesn't make it a clone. Should you keep using an archaic system just because your competitor already used the better one?
No idea what the hell you're talking about. IIRC, Emperor: Battle for Dune had quite identical sides as opposed to "create 3 totally different sides and rock paper scissors balance them". And as said, Dune isn't Command & Conquer.The faction balancing reminds me more of Emperor than Star Craft
Starcraft is just Warcraft (or should I say WARHAMMER 40k?) with a different setting anyway so it doesn't matter that TA came out before SC. Same for Dune IMO (at least 2k and Emperor), C&C in a different setting. Okay, it's the other way around for C&C, it even stole the carryall from Dune.
The factions in Emperor weren't very similar (at least not as much as Warcraft's factions and they shared fewer units than they did in Dune 2/2000), they all had the standard C&C build order but their units differed a lot. The Ordos had all the nifty artillery and guerilla warfare stuff together with gas weapons, the Harkonnen got the big and bad tanks and a love for fire and the Atreides had a normal, balanced arsenal. Hey, sounds familiar, that's just what Generals did.
The factions in Generals aren't as dissimilar as the factions in Starcraft.
The factions in Emperor weren't very similar (at least not as much as Warcraft's factions and they shared fewer units than they did in Dune 2/2000), they all had the standard C&C build order but their units differed a lot. The Ordos had all the nifty artillery and guerilla warfare stuff together with gas weapons, the Harkonnen got the big and bad tanks and a love for fire and the Atreides had a normal, balanced arsenal. Hey, sounds familiar, that's just what Generals did.
The factions in Generals aren't as dissimilar as the factions in Starcraft.
For determining if Total Annihilation is a Starcraft clone, sure as hell it is. RTS developers today *AREN'T* cloning the outdated game that is Warcraft, but Starcraft. No matter if it was first or not.KDR_11k wrote:Starcraft is just Warcraft (or should I say WARHAMMER 40k?) with a different setting anyway so it doesn't matter that TA came out before SC.
And no Command & Conquer game did.The factions in Emperor weren't very similar (at least not as much as Warcraft's factions and they shared fewer units than they did in Dune 2/2000), they all had the standard C&C build order but their units differed a lot. The Ordos had all the nifty artillery and guerilla warfare stuff together with gas weapons, the Harkonnen got the big and bad tanks and a love for fire and the Atreides had a normal, balanced arsenal. Hey, sounds familiar, that's just what Generals did.
They are cloning (or at least taking elements, you rarely see a clean clone) whatever was successful recently. At some point that was C&C and Warcraft, then it morphed a bit, then came the later iterations of each series and rarely was a game left uninfluenced by the ones before it. TA has independent buildings and constructors, almost no monolithic parts. That makes it evolved from Warcraft, not Dune/C&C. I doubt Cavedog thought about Warcraft 2 when making TA, they saw what worked in previous RTSes which in turn used what worked in the ones before them and so on until you arrive at Dune 2 and Warcraft (I don't think Herzog Zwei inspired anyone). Starcraft is just one point in this whole chain of evolution and modern games have evolved past it. The only reason you're seeing more ideas taken from Blizzard than Westwood these days is because C&C refused to evolve with its stupid monolithic design while the craft series adopted a few more new ideas throughout its existence. Monolithic building was on its way out already before Starcraft appeared because it's an unnecessary, arbitrary restriction just like selection or queue limits.ZellSF wrote:For determining if Total Annihilation is a Starcraft clone, sure as hell it is. RTS developers today *AREN'T* cloning the outdated game that is Warcraft, but Starcraft. No matter if it was first or not.KDR_11k wrote:Starcraft is just Warcraft (or should I say WARHAMMER 40k?) with a different setting anyway so it doesn't matter that TA came out before SC.
But not all ideas are from Blizzard's strain of evolution, look at less pronounced features like unit experience, that debuted in a C&C game IIRC.
Does anyone remember their first games of TA?
I can still remember the first time. Vividly. I don't know what map I was playing, but that's not really that important. Anyway, I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on, I could build these energy producing things but not anything for metal... then I caught on... I thought the game was some kind of weirdass RPG, until a few raiders and gators appeared and started killing my commander, who was wandering aimlessly across the map. It was then that I found this button labelled d-gun...
So then I stole the game from my deadbeat brother in law (ok he gave it to me, and he wasn't a deadbeat at the time, to my knowledge. Also it was an illegal copy. Yeah that's right... I actually only found a legal copy to buy a few years back.)... soon I discovered, THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE MENU OF THINGS TO BUILD!!!! Those arrows at the bottom actually did something!
And so it begins...
I remember another game when I was just starting to be able to beat the AI on easy
... I was playing great divide, and testing out stuff in the middle to find out what it did. I built a bertha, thought, this thing sucks ass. It only shoots like once a minute and you have to tell it what to shoot!!! So then I found annihilators and was happy. After that game, I was really hooked. TA is such a fantastic game. Look at the legacy it has spawned. It took us nearly 10 years to even be able to duplicate it. TA's going to live on for a long time.
I can still remember the first time. Vividly. I don't know what map I was playing, but that's not really that important. Anyway, I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on, I could build these energy producing things but not anything for metal... then I caught on... I thought the game was some kind of weirdass RPG, until a few raiders and gators appeared and started killing my commander, who was wandering aimlessly across the map. It was then that I found this button labelled d-gun...
So then I stole the game from my deadbeat brother in law (ok he gave it to me, and he wasn't a deadbeat at the time, to my knowledge. Also it was an illegal copy. Yeah that's right... I actually only found a legal copy to buy a few years back.)... soon I discovered, THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE MENU OF THINGS TO BUILD!!!! Those arrows at the bottom actually did something!
And so it begins...
I remember another game when I was just starting to be able to beat the AI on easy
... I was playing great divide, and testing out stuff in the middle to find out what it did. I built a bertha, thought, this thing sucks ass. It only shoots like once a minute and you have to tell it what to shoot!!! So then I found annihilators and was happy. After that game, I was really hooked. TA is such a fantastic game. Look at the legacy it has spawned. It took us nearly 10 years to even be able to duplicate it. TA's going to live on for a long time.I bought it on a holiday trip and hadenough time to read the entire manual three times over. I can still tell you how the Energy Weapon or nanobuilding for monomolecular armor works... What DID take me some time to figure out was that the "Nuclear defense system" was not supposed to be a defense turret using nuclear missiles.
I borrowed it from a friend. My first game was on Lava Hills(?), the map with two big mesas divided by a river in the lava world tileset. I remember that I almost got killed because the AI (which was abysmal on that map) managed to send Freedom fighters at me. I remember killing the AI with a combo of Atlas'd Zeuses and Thunders.
Honestly, who can't remember their first game of TA?
Honestly, who can't remember their first game of TA?