Balance by Design

[FoeOfTheBee]

Coming up with formulas and implementing a relational database system to parse, process, and output new fbi and tdf files is trivial in comparison to balancing by hand. It is so tedious.

[jellyman]

maybe start with some guidelines such as:

Every hitpoint cost x1 metal and y1 energy and weighs z1
Every horsepower of accelaration costs x2, y2, weighs z2. Speed of unit is given by ratio of total horsepower to total mass.
Every horsepower of maneuvaribility costs x3, y3, weighs z3. Maneuvarability of unit is given by ratio of total horsepower to total mass.

This could give basic chasis and statistics. Special abilities would then need to be dealt with. Some possible examples:

Flight - require minimum maneuvarability and speed.
Different additional motive power such as hover, legs for climbing steep walls multiply x,y,z cost and weight by a ratio (e.g. 50% increase for hover).
Weapons example 1: light laser costs x,y, weighs z. Has fixed rate of fire/damage, range stats.
Weapons example 2: laser types cost x1,y2, weigh z2 per point of damage per second at range 400. Multiply costs by 2 to get range 800 etc.

This could get complicated to cover every possible example, but should hopefully explain the concept well enough if anyone wants to use.

[Caydr]

I've come up with balance formulas every now and then... don't know where I've got my most recent one, if I've got it at all. While the formula is good for getting a pretty good balance going, they don't really feel... y'know... right. Picture-perfect balance isn't always such a good thing, even if it could be achieved.

It certainly is an interesting idea though. I think the future of RTS games will be such formulae, where designing units can be done on the fly... sort of like Impossible Creatures, only without sucking.

[PauloMorfeo]

Ok guys, are you done with the pessimistic behaviour yet?
I'm sorry but it's getting quite annoying.

No one know for sure how profitable, or how hard, it will be. That's no reason for anyone to not follow this path.

And why people keep thinking that a formula has to be either absolutely perfect or entirely useless?
At least to me, if a formula is made that manages to make a moderatly balanced mod, that's more than good enough.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
So, I was setting up a database solution this afternoon, parsing all the fbi's and tdf's with python, and I remembered that paulada was already doing something like this.

So I'm holding off for the moment, ...

If you want to use an Sql database, i have 2 diferent ones ready (improved versions of the ones i uploaded sometime ago to FileUniverse).

My «thing» is still some time to be. As i've told, i don't expect it to be ready until 15+ of january. In the mean-time, you can do one of these:
- If you have Microsoft's Excel, use Maelstrom's FBI editor for quickly handling that. (i think it can do that!?)
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3114
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2596

- In the mean time, start establishing much needed premises:
##########
The starting premise that needs to be established: Metal-Energy-BuildTime relashionship!
Ok, so metal is more valuable than energy. But how much? To find out aproximate values, i propose this:

Pick up a unit that's very used, like a Rocko, and use it's stats. Then, create 3 diferent looking unit (so we can distinguish them) but with the exact same stats. Supose that Rocko costed 100 M, 2000 E, 3000 BT. You would make each of the 3 cheaper in only one of those. Example:
1st: 80 M, ..., ...
2nd: ..., 1600 E, ...
3rd: ..., ..., 2400 BT
Then, this would have to be play tested and balanced after which we could draw conclusions of the relative values of Metal, Energy and BT.
This could probably be done more correctly mathematically based on the general availability of resources, general cost of resource builders and such but that's alot of math... If anyone is good enough at math for that...!?

But before that:
This M-E-BT relation is based on 3 other premises.
These 3 don't need to be mathematical. You just need to establish them as they're the foundations. (if you want, i can also discuss what i think the outcomes of such premises will be)
1st- How much faster do units build and how much do they cost?
2nd- How much resources do we have access to?
3rd- How much does resource gathering costs?

1st- Decide how fast the builders build, in general. For example, how much fast does a commander builds, how much slower you want lvl-1 builders to build, etc, and general costs of the builders.
For costs, it would probably be better to leave them as it is, for now. It ain't too much relevant anyway since they're build cost is only spent once.
For build time, you can have something like a commander having 300, lvl-1 builders 80 (except planes), lvl-2 160~200. But that's for you to decide.

2nd- This part needs to, either make adjust to all maps, or select some maps to be considered standard. I think it is better selecting some maps. I vote Small Divide, Mars and Comet Catcher. SD is small. SD and Mars are hilly for K-Bots. Mars and CC are large for the speed of Vehicles and Planes. CC is completely flat for vehicles and long range lasers and artilery. None of them seem to have too much resources, or too few.

3rd- As said, isn't extremely relevant but you need to decide, generally, how much each resource gathering building costs. Probably leave them as they are!?

##########
Or, maybe, you can just decide that M is x more valuable than E and y than BT!? And then adjust everything to it?
Don't really know which is best.

These premises seem, to me, like the absolute basis of a mod's balance. That's why it is so important to have them defined before anything else.

[Maelstrom]

...
In the mean-time, you can do one of these:
- If you have Microsoft's Excel, use Maelstrom's FBI editor for quickly handling that. (i think it can do that!?)
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3114
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2596
...

The editor can load in all your FBI files, and dynamically adds any missing tags found as it goes. Then, using the list of tags used, you could set up the database if you wanted to. But it couldnt be that hard to do yourself really.

[FoeOfTheBee]

I've used Maelstroms editor to implement what I have so far. To be honest, that editor is the only thing that makes this practical. But it is only useful for FBI files, which is why I haven't used variables that are in weapon tdf files.

[FoeOfTheBee]

...
My «thing» is still some time to be. As i've told, i don't expect it to be ready until 15+ of january.

I'm willing to help out...

[Maelstrom]

I've used Maelstroms editor to implement what I have so far. To be honest, that editor is the only thing that makes this practical. But it is only useful for FBI files, which is why I haven't used variables that are in weapon tdf files.

If you know how to work with Macro's in Excel, then it shouldnt be to hard to modify my code. FBI's and TDF's are basically identical anyway, so it really would not be that hard.

[FoeOfTheBee]

I've used Maelstroms editor to implement what I have so far. To be honest, that editor is the only thing that makes this practical. But it is only useful for FBI files, which is why I haven't used variables that are in weapon tdf files.

If you know how to work with Macro's in Excel, then it shouldnt be to hard to modify my code. FBI's and TDF's are basically identical anyway, so it really would not be that hard.

I did mess with this a bit, and it would be possible, but an rdb solution is, I think, more appropriate. Also easier to develop. The same thing could be done in Excel with separate worksheets for download, sidedara, weapon, and fbi files, and formulas across multiple spreadsheets, but this seems inelegant, and excel is not free...

[Zoombie]

You can have flammable corpses?

I can think of all the fun you can have with flamethrowers and infantry.

A nice all encompassing "Theory of Balancing" would be nice, but it might get really complicated. BUT if someone very smart was able to make it then i would jump with glee!

But because I'm craptastic with math, don't look to me.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
But because I'm craptastic with math, ...

Ho? Join the club, then! So much need for some advanced math, right now...

...
My «thing» is still some time to be. As i've told, i don't expect it to be ready until 15+ of january.

I'm willing to help out...

That would be very nice. But for that, you would have to be able to work with the same technologies i'm using:

- I'm working with mono instead of MS.NET . You would have to know how to program for MS.NET, at least, or, preferably, some mono specific knowledge.

- The language i'm using is C#, which is, anyway, the only one that is complete in mono. And is the best, too .

- As editor, i'm using X-Develop. Multi-platform and comercial but with a 20 use days free trial (for each trial ). That ain't really needed but, the official editor, monodevelop, is probably still buggy. Or stable already? Then there are the the horde of text editors like kwrite, kate, vim, emacs, etc. But i don't think you would get, the much valuable, code-completion and some other things.

- You would also need to have a MySql server running. But for using the program after it is done you would need it anyway. This will be, probably, the trickiest part of using the program after it is done.

- Knowledge of working with Sql would be helpfull although not really needed as i can take care of that.

So, if you know, at least, some C# and are willing to install mono and MySql, we can certainly arrange something.
This is a good time, anyway, because, so far, i've finished the database (within schedule) and finished learning how to use the grafical library Gtk# (yesterday and 2 work days ahead of schedule ).
So, the core of the program is yet to be started.

[mongus]

Maybe taking some "indexes" out of know-balance mods (like xta, UH, AA, OTA, etc), could give some general working lines?

for example, RAW power index. that is the ammount of damage all the units in one race do if every one shots once. (just exclude kroggoth from that...).

or total metal cost of a race..

[cain]

Yeuch.

Balance out of forumulas leads to stagnated, repetitive, predictable and robotic gameplay.

wrong!

a good formula means it's easy to balance (in cost and build time) different kind of unit, so it's easy to have a balanced, out of the box, system of unit where each side have a specific design:
for example
a - fast and light race
b - heavy and slow race
c - heavy low range high power weapons race
d - light unit, with big weapon race.

each side could be real different, very kind in design, using a own set of unit driven by a particular tought of the war system, and still be competitive with the others, as the magic formula (IF it could be done) will balance the costs and thus the unit count in game.

think of how similar are core and arm by now... they've got their heavy tank, their fast attack veichle and so on... core is slightly stroger and costly, but not that much different, as it will be a nightmare to balance different designed races with trial and error

other toughts: you will need a real complex thing, maybe you should use trial and error ON the formula definition at start. Still, I think you will need something more than linear cost. you need more than 100 unit to destroy a 100x armored and wmpowered unit.
something like a power, or an exponential:
metal cost = armor^2 or e^armor

[Guessmyname]

Find the most balanced mod you can and work off that would be the best way to start, but personally, its a waste of time. It'll never be perfect

[Lord JoNil]

I think it is a very good idea. The only problem is to get it right.

I would love to do some units with a formula if one would be created.


// Lord.JoNil

[Pxtl]

There are too many variables to attempt to balance mathematically. For example, can a weapon shoot at gunships? Even many non-AA guns hit a Brawler (or a Krow in Abs) in a pinch. What is the unit's sight range? How does that relate to the unit's firing range? Can the unit cloak? Is it cloakable _and_ armed? Plus, holes in your (or your enemy's) spread can severely affect the usefulness of a unit.

Mathematics are good for a rough start, but ultimately balance must come from brute-force testing.

[Torrasque]

Yeah, a good example is the explostion of the unit.
Is it good or bad? If it run quite fast and have a good armore, it good and you must rise the cost.
If the unit is slow, it should low the cost...and for mines ?

[FoeOfTheBee]

I have released Xect Vs. Mynn v0.5. It is balanced by formula. I am pleased with the results.

If you are skeptical, or just interested in in seeing how it has turned out, it is here:
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2140

It DOES NOT take information in the weapon .tdf files into account yet. This means rapid-firing or long range units may be unbalanced. Look for this to be addressed in future formulas. Also solar collectors statistics were set arbitrarily.

[Chocapic]

i think a mod with fomula changes has gotta be very interesting and creative, as it might change certain aspects of gameplay at all
(either for good or for bad )