Etiquette for non-programmers who want to make a game?

[gajop]

I want to know the right folks first, perhaps you guys know anyone I might be interested in?

(P.S. Is it possible to have a shooter in Spring or does the engine limit that? And what about physics? I've heard that Spring technically works like a 2D plane, so are jumping units possible?)

Well so far you've been talking to the wrong folks mostly
Don't do shooters in Spring. Spring has some basic physics. Need a better question of what you'd like. Spring is a 3D game that uses heightmaps for terrain. Jumping units are possible and exist. See the "jumping bots" factory in ZK

[Raptor177]

I want to know the right folks first, perhaps you guys know anyone I might be interested in?

(P.S. Is it possible to have a shooter in Spring or does the engine limit that? And what about physics? I've heard that Spring technically works like a 2D plane, so are jumping units possible?)

Well so far you've been talking to the wrong folks mostly
Don't do shooters in Spring. Spring has some basic physics. Need a better question of what you'd like. Spring is a 3D game that uses heightmaps for terrain. Jumping units are possible and exist. See the "jumping bots" factory in ZK

I was curious whether it was possible to have character control to make some sort of hybrid RTS on the Spring engine (most of those types of games use mainly shooter-based engines and add RTS elements, not the other way round), or if that's impossible due to engine limitations.

[PicassoCT]

Hybrids with direct controlls are a problem - due to the engines mechanics of sending input-information to other clients

So there will be always a sort of feelable delay between input and result (the physicframes are just not dense enough) you could change that in the c++ core of the engine, but then you would try to build the worlds first waterproof wagon, by nailing wheels to a ship. It coud work ..

There are some spring mini-games though. Pacman. A plane game. Some other games who have micro as a integral part of gameplay. So feel free to try. And dota was made on wc3 engine at first.. So lots of stuff is possible.

[zwzsg]

It's possible, it's even been done a few times already, but, you will have uncomfortable input lag.

Because it's a RTS engine, Spring use a synced model: the computer of every player run the game simulation, and it's carefully coded in such a way that the simulation unfold the same way on every computer. So that, only the player inputs are transmitted over the network, instead of the the whole state of the game. That also means that when you give an order, it is not taking effect immediately, but must be sent to other player computers and acknowledged back, which introduce a reaction delay.

FPS engines on the other hand usually use a system where a single server simulate the game state, and send update about other players and objects to every player, and also where the clients run by players do some prediction so as to react immediately to your input, and ....

I suppose you could, like, have unsynced player movement, and only sync the action that impact the world, like shots hitting, but that could be hairy to design and code, and you said you're not a coder. You could also accept the input lag and use the first person control already built-in the engine, or one of the first person Lua widget floating around.


TLDR: you can't have a twitch shooter on a RTS engine.

[Raptor177]

Ahh... very interesting details. So apparently the problems of manual control on Spring is serverside instead of a problem in the engine itself... Very interesting, thanks.

Oh, and PicassoCT... you haven't answered me... how did you find out who I was? Did you work for Epic Adventure War RTS or did you just google my name and find that?

[zwzsg]

It's not a problem with the server. It's a problem with the multi-player architecture. It's the way the engine is designed.

• A RTS typically has several hundred of units, each with its own state.
  You can't transmit the whole game state at once, would be too much data.
• A FPS typically has few players (such as16) in a static world.
  A FPS typically relies on reflex.

Different needs and constraint results in different choice and trade-off in the engine.

Not sure how to explain, try reading something like
http://gafferongames.com/networking-for ... etworking/

Or if, as an artist, you find the technical aspect of games too complicated, take our word for it: a FPS in an RTS engine is possible, but would probably be a shoddy experience.

[Raptor177]

No, no, I understand. When I meant that, I meant it as in how the servers send data to each machine.

However, now I know how the multiplayer works on Spring, which is a good detail.

[gajop]

I'm not sure if your understanding is correct or not, and to avoid confusion I think you should be answered in layman terms.
I'm not sure it's smart for artists to choose engines and similar technical details. This is not their expertise, and you won't be able to do that without much more knowledge than you have.
I suggest that you give details of your game, and let us tell you if this engine is suitable for you or not.

[FLOZi]

I suggest that you give details of your game, and let us tell you if this engine is suitable for you or not.

This.

Also texturers are in high demand so you have a saleable skill set in that regard (but it is greatly enhanced if you can also UV map)

[zwzsg]

Doesn't really matter what Raptor177 idea is. The answer will most likely be: Yes, it is possible to do that in Spring, however, you will have to code most of it yourself in Lua. Also, Spring might not be the engine most suited to it.

[Jools]

But spring doesn't just need code, it also needs art (from someone who uses a mac). I think he's proposing to do team work. Hopefully someone will accept.

[smoth]

You are an "artist" but mostly I see a lot of talk got a deviant art page with your work maybe we will talk.

Most people here are helpful but anyone can code so saying crap like you can't code nah bullshit, you are too lazy to learn. Coding and art can be acquired as skills.

I shut gundam rts down years ago if you was not lazy you would have read the posts already.

No one is going to waste time on your sonic game because coding takes time. And unless you have a project that interests people you will not get help.

Refusing to post your real idea, claiming to be an artis but not showing work. These are hallmarks of a kid who would rather talk about making a game than actually make it. Every development community has these sort of posts because people just assume development is easy. Gundam rts took many years to develop it more or less by myself with the help of the community and some friends here.

Show some work if you want to be taken seriously

[zwzsg]

got a deviant art page with your work maybe we will talk.

Yes, he has:

http://raptor-177.deviantart.com







It even mentions the Sonic RTS project:

This image is the first time I've ever colored a unit. Now you're asking, "What do you mean by unit?" See, truth is that the whole "IRO" universe was made because there hadn't been a Sonic RTS, and seeing as that the original Sonic universe would be terrible for an RTS (mostly because it focuses on the individual and/or small group), so I decided to create my own universe for it. Besides, what else is good as "filler time" for the empty period between Shadow's creation and the current Sonic story?

Now, about the picture: It's meant to be the basic infantry unit of the IRO. It may look modern by current standards, but I put the timeline in the mid-21st century, therefore the GUN has things like walking tanks while the IRO... doesn't. All soldiers (except Chameleons) are facepainted so they blend in far better, instead of bright, garish colors. He holds a yet-to-be named rifle that is basically an M4 that is halfway in size to the M16 (with a long barrel for default), but uses the robust AK mechanism, and is ambidextrous but the entire bolt carrier has to be changed for that. I took the picture... somewhere. I was trying to make EVERYTHING from scratch, but I couldn't make any broken glass effects, so I had to download some brushes. Oh yes, and I fail at photomanipulation, no Minitrue for you!

Also, I'm looking for a programmer. I know I'm a hopeless dreamer, but hey, I have a goal in life. I'm quite sure SEGA won't risk making such a game.

Finished 5/11/2012

[Raptor177]

True, true, all of you, I'm really just taking shots out into the dark here, to see what's possible with Spring while vaguely inferring my project idea. I'm trying to familiarize myself with all the possible engines I could use, and I first thought of Spring because it's prepackaged as an RTS engine and it's non-proprietary, but I see that the entire multiplayer structure means a seamless RTS hybrid mechanism isn't very possible (I've seen it in Warcraft III, it's weird and clunky, however, possible).

That's exactly why I'm asking here and not pitching my idea just yet, because I want to have a general idea of what's what in Spring. I may not be able to code the actual thing, but I'm confident I can read the general source code for games with features I need, to see what is and isn't possible. I've got other options to choose from, like Unity and Unreal, among others, which, like Spring, has lots of premade code and development packs floating around the 'nets that may be used to streamline the coding process by scanning the source code, and to see what is and isn't possible in said game engine. It's always good to keep options though...

I haven't shown any "real work" (i.e. gameplay and unit concept art, which includes concept textures) yet because I'm doing it right now. Well to be honest, being a huge procrastinator has something to do with the lack of progress, but so is not having any sort of development team. I want to change that direction in my life, which is why I'm trying to be active establishing relations with all the different communities, and start to actually do work.

Smoth bro, I got ya covered. I've seen the amounts of threads and posts for people wishing for a "Sonic RTS game" and how they are just kids talking about making a video game (all they do is talk about factions and units), but not any features or what engine to use, etc. I'm trying to avoid the mistakes those people make when pitching a game idea. By that, I mean I'm thinking realistically and pragmatically, what ideas are possible to implement, what ideas are too complicated or impractical to implement, and the priority of which those features should be implemented in (e.g. core gameplay should always come before gimmicks).

Though, cut me some slack too. I'm just a 15 year old kid (just turned yesterday) with a tablet and no inherent programming skills, and I'm panicking because I want to see if I can get this done before I finish high school, which is de facto the "everything needs to make money because it's a capitalist society and I'm a legal adult" age.

Apparently the process is much harder in the meritocratic dev community where you have to either prove your salt or have some status/money to find some serious people, which I don't have the latter and I've yet to make the former, AND I missed out on my prime empty time by generally procrastinating. This is even worse since project leads generally are programmers who look for artists, while I'm starting on the other end.

Because of that, I have to focus on the one skill I'm adept at, which is 2D art, therefore I don't have time to master other skills while I focus on my own. I'm in sort of an existential crisis, but I'm obsessed with fulfilling a dream I had years ago, and I can't give up... for some reason (and no, there's been too many examples of how much SEGA doesn't want to tamper with Sonic fan works and games to say that there's gonna be legal issues, if I keep it a non-profit labor of love of course.).

tl;dr: I'm a 15 year old kid who's only skilled at 2D, but I'm serious enough about my project that I'll try whatever I can to develop it, however I'm not sure how to begin in making up a team and finding a suitable engine, which is why I'm asking in this thread.



But anyways, since zwzsg has spilled my beans, I guess I'll have to explain myself...

Well, I've completely abandoned my original idea (with the fan fiction setting and nondescript gameplay) for something far more realistic, which is to target the canon setting itself.

Secondly, I want to use the Sonic the Hedgehog IP in a way that makes it essential for the IP to be Sonic, and not just an RTS with the Sonic universe as a setting. By this, I mean fast-paced gameplay on long, mostly-linear maps, and potentially the ability to switch to a Sonic-style TPS mode.

My development model will be of "escalation", which means I only need to start with a programmer or two to get the basic framework going, and as it becomes more and more realized, more and more people will take it as a serious project and share their talent. That way I'm not looking for so many people when I'm developing it, because realistically... this is one heck of a crazy project.

I apologize if this becomes too much of an "empty pitch", but I'm proving as hard as I can about how it isn't, and about how serious I am with the project. I didn't even plan on revealing my plans for my project this early, because I wanted to get along with the community and find people before even pitching the idea to this community, but truth of the matter is... I'm just a poor, confused soul who isn't sure how someone like me (an unknown artist with an apparent lack of skills outside of 2D art, for now at least, with an insane idea) is able to find a team, which is the real reason I made this thread; What do I do?

[Petah]

What do I do?

Give up, this is a lost cause.

[Silentwings]

Though, cut me some slack too. I'm just a 15 year old kid (just turned yesterday) with a tablet and no inherent programming skills, and I'm panicking because I want to see if I can get this done before I finish high school, which is de facto the "everything needs to make money because it's a capitalist society and I'm a legal adult" age.

What do I do?

Imho, put less pressure on yourself, keep hobbies like drawing & making games for your free time, then forget how young/old you are and let it take as long as it takes.

[Raptor177]

Too unlikely, because I've already made a vow for that to be my current goal in life for... some reason. However, I value the time you've offered to really show me the extent of Spring's capabilities. I've checked some other engines, and perhaps they would work better for this.

But... take a look at yourselves. Why should I be giving up and not you? If you aren't getting money for what you do, you're spending your time on energy on... your passion. Why aren't you giving up on your passion, and why should I?



But hey, if some of you EAW guys are continuing your RTS, gimme a call.

[knorke]

Happy birthday.

Can you sing this song?


How about this one?


Which song's melody do you like more? Which one has the better lyrics?
Unless you have learned to read notes, it is impossible to answer these question.
There would be simply no way to have any idea what the song sounds like.
Without speaking the language one can not even understand what the lyrics are about.
And about writing your own song: Even if you had all the music sheets in the world, without knowing how to read them it would not be helpful.



It is same with code and comparing game engines.
If you want to make a game then learn programming.

Maybe try Javascript. For start all you need is webbrowser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBCTc9zHtI
More general: http://www.wikihow.com/Learn-a-Programming-Language

Even if you do not plan to do the programming part, you must be able to understand the basic ideas what programming peoplepersons say when you talk to them.

[PicassoCT]

No, you`re idea of needing to know stuff and to do hard labour to benefit from other people is rape.

I want it all, without lifting a finger. So how can i be a more effective meta-parasite.

Is there a drug-addiction docking spot on programmers?
Or can i force the somehow by social convention-docking spot?
Maybe they are religious, surely they have a docking spot for rituals?
Or maybe they hate people, so i can leech unto that hate, and promise to keep those people away, for coding hours?
I dont want to hack code, i want to hack people.

Lets get this over with. You will learn coding. Here and now. Relax and this will hurt less.

Spring.Echo("Hello World, im beeing raped with knowledge. Its horrible.")

Paste this into any file with the ending .lua in your games folder and when the file gets executed, it will print the sentence ingame and into infolog.txt in your gamefolder. Do it.
Its feasible.

Then find a folder in games, that is called scripts.
Do it again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMSoo4B2hFU
You are now negative pi-rated..
which means anything, but irrational and infinite

[scifi]

Let me tell you at the age of 15 you still have a lot of time.

Want some advice start looking at things like love2D,Unity Engine and GameMaker, all of these have excelent tutorials to start with. Although unity and gamemaker have extended drag and drop features for non-programers, but you will have to learn how to program eventualy.

My personal preference, Unity 2D is getting along quite nicely, also since you can draw you can even atempt to make some cool 2d games inside of it.

Also if you follow the tutorials with enough attention you will pick some programming along the way, which you will eventually need. Also all of these are free to download.

About your idea, RTS games arent easy to make, i would suggest trying to make bullet hell style games like geometry wars, or an asteroids clone. These are the kind of games that you can finish fast, and start getting momentum towards your next thing.

I think the punch line here is try and fail, and keep trying and failing until something good apears, or until you have enough skill in order to do something good.