An overhaul of BA balance

[tzaeru]

In my humble opinion, what is really downlooked here is how maps affect balance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the most played SC1 and SC2 maps created by the teams at Blizzard and as such, enjoyed quite lenghty playing time amongst their developers who, after all these years of professional experience, probably have a really good grasp of how balance is best to be done?

I guess what I mean to say is that almost all classic maps we play on BA, like Comet Catcher Redux, are pretty large, particularly when considering how slow BA units are compared to say, StarCraft. That combined with the fact that spots for metal are often spread quite widely, means the benefit of maneuvaribility is much greater than it is in some other games. As such, not only is it an additional hindrance in going T2 (in CCR, you don't beat a pack of flashes with a few reapers. Naw, the flashes just drive past happily) but also greatly affects how same tier units are balanced towards each other.

I suppose it could also be said that BA units don't necessarily mix very well with each other in groups, and typically any given map has single best unit that gets amassed. For example, CCR is very often solely stumpies + flashes. There's no real need for anything else, taken how the combined balance of the map and BA itself play out. But I'm a bit curious here - since I haven't really played SC2 much at all - how does this work in SC2 or other praised RTS games? How do they avoid one single unit being basically the best choice to have in any given map?

After all that, I still would like to add that I greatly enjoy both the balance and tactics of BA. It has room to improvement of course, but in it's current state it greatly outclasses any other RTS I've played.

[scifi]

in very simplistic terms SC2 1v1 is about counter after counter after counter. Even starting builds work as counters. With the wrong build you will loose even if you perform everything the correct way, and have extraordinary micro skills.

BA is who gets the certain unit faster, and expands faster.
Totally different.In BA you know what to do in certain maps, and how to start there inst much choice, either you are faster than the enemy, and micro better or you loose.

BUT! Maps like geysers show the potential for BA 1v1 where people use all kind of opening builds and starts, like either go for air rush, kbot rush, Janus rush with com etc. But somehow its the only map that rely allows this kind of different tactics to shine IMO.

Like in BA in big open flat maps, enemy makes flash, what you do to counter flash Spam, you either Spam more flash or Spam stumpy if you got the Eco. But since in 90% of the situations if both players are good you will make flash.

In star-craft there would be a certain unit or ability to counter the use of flash tanks.Or something that can be used with flash tanks to improve the game-play itself.

So lets say the enemy opens with the regular scout units, then transitions to flash, what i would like BA to have would be, ok i know hes making that starting build, what can i do to counter that build rather than go the same thing hes making (witch is totally legit but a bit boring). Maybe flash with some other kind of unit thats like a spell caster to buff my units i dunno. Something that presents more choice than brainless Macro.

One thing that works better is Kbot versus kbot 1v1, you got several interesting units and some good counters, but still it results in AK/PW then transition to storm spam with repairers, or thud/hammer if some hills are present. So your kinda forced to do these things at the correct time, at the same order.

Some people say that allowing tier 2 units to arrive earlier would allow the appearance of these new tactics and plays. I dunno it has been tried already people didn't liked it.

I enjoy BA 1v1 the early part of it, the scout rush the transition to flash/stumpy with repair and some janus, or emp/levelers etc, even the ocasional HLT rush in smaler maps, but the problem is after that.

[tzaeru]

in very simplistic terms SC2 1v1 is about counter after counter after counter. Even starting builds work as counters. With the wrong build you will loose even if you perform everything the correct way, and have extraordinary micro skills.

Is this 'artificially' done in SC2, i.e. some units just always do more damage to certain type of other unit? If not, how is it actually achieved? Are range and damage differences between units higher in SC2? Are there more units that say, stun and are used vs. single strong units?

Mostly what I'm after here is, that is it actually possible to use only speed, size, range, DPS and fire rate to make an interesting balance or do you need more special abilities or artificial modifiers to really make a difference to unit variation?

BA is who gets the certain unit faster, and expands faster.
Totally different.In BA you know what to do in certain maps, and how to start there inst much choice, either you are faster than the enemy, and micro better or you loose.

Well, I do think there is still some variation there. For example, you can do a slower start and use your extra unit or two to try and take the enemy's initial troops; Or, you can go all out PeeWee or Flash and attempt to immediatelly stop enemy from getting any cons out, while going for slower mex expansion yourself.

It's not a huge variation, but it's some. Something that there could be more of, though.

BUT! Maps like geysers show the potential for BA 1v1 where people use all kind of opening builds and starts, like either go for air rush, kbot rush, Janus rush with com etc. But somehow its the only map that rely allows this kind of different tactics to shine IMO.

Like in BA in big open flat maps, enemy makes flash, what you do to counter flash Spam, you either Spam more flash or Spam stumpy if you got the Eco. But since in 90% of the situations if both players are good you will make flash.

Yeah - I kind of always felt the issue is more about map balance, than BA's balance in itself.

[Forboding Angel]

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. And as I said, directly comparing "balance" between SC2 and BA isn't the same thing so stop making out that SC2's balance is bad when you're looking at it with a BA flashlight. I'm done.

I don't play BA, so how would I be looking at it through BA lenses?

[Johannes]

Some people say that allowing tier 2 units to arrive earlier would allow the appearance of these new tactics and plays. I dunno it has been tried already people didn't liked it.

When?

[Beherith]

Some people say that allowing tier 2 units to arrive earlier would allow the appearance of these new tactics and plays. I dunno it has been tried already people didn't liked it.

When?

SA

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Oh hardly anyone even gave SA a shot.

But to just say That BA or any other TA game or mod should be designed or left to not include most of the game's units in 1v1 battles is a losing design strategy.
A good strategy game would never be designed like that.
Plus you can use 1v1 for balance while still keeping the game fun for team games.


@Scifi
Do you really want A TA mod that plays like Starcraft?
I doubt anyone here can design or balance a TA like game,adopt Starcraft's design and gameplay while making it better than Starcraft.

Might as well go play Starcraft.
It probably has perfected the whole armor countering design, after all they started using it with Warcraft 1.
Also almost all maps in Spring when Ba is played on them will have countering starts.
It's just that There are not enough players here on a high enough skill level for us to be able to recognize and outline all the countering starts while playing on the different maps.

[smoth]

But to just say That BA or any other TA game or mod should be designed or left to not include most of the game's units in 1v1 battles is a losing design strategy.

Most 1v1 are small maps.

Most 1v1 do not have the dynamics of a large team game.

tier 1 is mostly going to be the 1v1 units because you have spent the absolute minimal to get units on the field. The t2 jump only makes sense in prolonged 1v1 or team games. Tier 1 is closer to a starcraft type game where you have limited leaner selection of units, that is normal for 1v1. Where *A shines is in large games with tons of units at which point tier 1 is often moved past quickly outside of the initial scouting phase.

[Johannes]

Some people say that allowing tier 2 units to arrive earlier would allow the appearance of these new tactics and plays. I dunno it has been tried already people didn't liked it.

When?

SA

I don't really remember how the t1->t2 transition was done in SA, but I don't think it was almost ever cited as the reason why someone didn't like SA.

[scifi]

Some people say that allowing tier 2 units to arrive earlier would allow the appearance of these new tactics and plays. I dunno it has been tried already people didn't liked it.

When?

SA

And PA, that mod triton made a long while ago. Pro anihi.... I enjoyed it i recall 8D still didi but the 90% of the people didnt played it.

Is this 'artificially' done in SC2, i.e. some units just always do more damage to certain type of other unit? If not, how is it actually achieved? Are range and damage differences between units higher in SC2? Are there more units that say, stun and are used vs. single strong units?

Mostly what I'm after here is, that is it actually possible to use only speed, size, range, DPS and fire rate to make an interesting balance or do you need more special abilities or artificial modifiers to really make a difference to unit variation?

Yes it is artificially done, (a kind of armour classes), and there are special unit ability's that are needed to counter specific units. Take for example archons units with epic shield stats but with 10 hit points of life, terran player makes a sniper with an emp ability , emp then the shield is off the archons can be picked off by whatever you like.(not to mention emp is a specific counter to all protoss units), an ability counters an entire range of units, and debuffs an army.

Take for example early units,
-zerglings roaches-
-marine marauder-
-zealot stalker-
These units are balanced between each other, mutch like scout/flash/stumpy is, some are more expensive, others are weaker but have more dps, these result in equal even fights in terms of Range/size/DPS/speed.

The thing is there are upgrades and abilitys that added to the units above make the gameplay interesting imo.

ofc that there are starts where you can skip these early units totaly, like go for a tier 2 rush(in BA terms), but they are a bit cheese to do in a 1v1. More doable in 2v2 3v3 and 4v4.

Basic well i dont think i would like a starcraft mod in spring, ive got starcraft for that xD, but well it doesnt do harm to look at starcraft to see things they do good and stuff they do bad.

Upgrades and game progression they do it like a boss, actual balance between races and some lack of counters to certain OP late game builds, well they kinda fail, late game in starcraft is kinda lame.

[Johannes]

But to just say That BA or any other TA game or mod should be designed or left to not include most of the game's units in 1v1 battles is a losing design strategy.

Most 1v1 are small maps.

Most 1v1 do not have the dynamics of a large team game.

tier 1 is mostly going to be the 1v1 units because you have spent the absolute minimal to get units on the field. The t2 jump only makes sense in prolonged 1v1 or team games.

That's right that every map won't ever have common t2 without some huge changes. And that even big maps in 1v1 maps allow for much more opportunities to end the game early than similar maps in big games, since raiding is so much harder due to there being several commanders spread throughout the map which are a huge defensive boost to having just 1.
So you've got a lot of things to do to be in the same stage that a team game almost starts at (map mostly mexed up, and everything relatively well defended).

Now when you do actually reach the point where it's viable to tech up, be it any gamesize, it's just still an iffy process. Because it's so much a RPS situation, if you get away with the tech while your opponent doesn't do it yet, you easily win - and if your opponent places a decisive attack right at the
And if you prepare a moment more building defense, then you'll end up behind if the enemy techs before you right now.
Yes that's the essence throughout the game, to balance between offense/defense/economy, but it's just too much emphasis on a single choice which also goes so fast it's often hard to scout and respond in time.
It'd be much better if teching was less dramatic and risky, and would let the game continue even a bigger % of time. Ie, smaller initial cost but not as huge payback.
And even if both sides manage to get tech at very even time, like is common in big team games, the teching process also periodically slows the game down too much.



And @Scifi, PA wasn't really played for any length of time, there wasn't any official release ever, it wasn't pulled back because it was deemed no change is needed.



Whatever happened to coop games, btw?

[Forboding Angel]

Of the 3 the zealot is by far the weakest because its slow and melee. Kings get speed early on. Zealots really suffer from not being ranged.

Why bring up sc2 again?

[scifi]

well PA had a beta release in springfiles everyone could download it at the time, it didnt had a forum thread release iirc but people could still download it, the link was in Pink channel at the time.

Triton hosted some games, and the big changes he made iirc were
reduced tier 2 fac cost and increased tier 2 constructor cost.

Witch made 1v1 games in maps like blue-bend actually transition to tier 2 after flash/instigator.

What i mean was people didnt seamed interested in the mod at the time, and believe me all the people that knew 1v1 BA at least tryed the mod, i was there.

Why should there be interest in going in that path as before, it didnt worked why should it work now????

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Any discussion about making T2 more available, should IMO, follow with a discussion about redesigning the unit choices and balance.

[Johannes]

Why should there be interest in going in that path as before, it didnt worked why should it work now????

Well, it wasn't because change was not wanted but because of organisatorial problems that it didn't go anywhere.
And afterwards TFC did buff a lot of T2 tanks, though which didn't help the issues from my POW, but make it more pronounced.

Day too sometime said that he was gonna properly revamp a lot of T2 mechanics since it didn't work well enough but then he gave up on the mod maintaining. And now nobody who can, wants to touch the subject for some reason. Thinking touching it at all would ruing 8v8 games or something?

The controversial air changes done a while back were a much bigger experiment, in any case.

[Silentwings]

The 'organisational problems', as I remember from days when we used to try SA out, were that ppl didn't like it that much.

[Johannes]

And I wasn't talking of SA.

[smoth]

people played SA, it just didn't pick up.

[Silentwings]

I *was* talking about SA.

[Johannes]

I *was* talking about SA.

Then you shouldn't quote me talking of another thing, perhaps.