What if we took this one level higher...
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I think what he was saying is that say someone made a game absed on the spring engien that was MMORPG like in that it used dedicated servers belonging to the creator, then they could charge if they wanted. Spring the engine would be just the engine and wouldnt charge, though I think the GPL may say that spring could take some of those profits, i havent properly read through the GPL yet tho...
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
Aha, I thought it was a little iffy.
Eitherway I think that if a hugely popular game does arise absed on spring that charges players monthly, then I think the spring team taking a cut of the profits would be a good idea. If not to get us some artists or part time paid coders who cant be guilt tripped into working for free
Eitherway I think that if a hugely popular game does arise absed on spring that charges players monthly, then I think the spring team taking a cut of the profits would be a good idea. If not to get us some artists or part time paid coders who cant be guilt tripped into working for free
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 06:15
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/donate.phpCaydr wrote:On to something more intelligent: why don't SYs start up a donation thing? I'd sure as hell pay for this. Although if they started CHARGING for it, I'd be the first so say to hell with it and work on something else.
i have no problem with any of this.A. People like to have player ratings
B. Not everyone can be a game host (has the technical necessities)
C. Laggy games are no fun
Dont even like the player rankings, because there can be some fat ass that .. well dunno... the way it works now its great. There is not much WON in playing/modding/map making/complainig/etc etc for the game as there is not much LOST either.
as per bandwidth.. well its mostly player side driven, the actual server does not consume that much bandwith bc the traffic does not pass trough it.
Anyhow, the person to say something about this is .. well the guys hosting the server atm, they may have something to do with the lobby/server developper. (any trouble at that we may need to know?).
Laggy games are realated to several things, more importantly, your RAM and CPU, yes, you can play fine games with a 56k connection +-500 units per game (hello there Mecha :) ).
To big maps, and lots of units, the ram ammount is very important, altougth 512 should be good enough, (i went from 128->768, and i can tell it made a HUGE difference in maps like .. anglo saxon and bigguer ones.., small maps are still very playable with low ram/cpu power).
In resume, i dont see the need for this. currently as it is, spring rocks, very much.
There is HUGE potential (even when its not perfect (i can live with that)), and space to grow.. (we dont have even a single 3rd race yet!).
If you want to develop something else ONTOP of the spring engine, well go ahead, and tie to the GPL license for that.
Personally.. (well only if its cheap :D) i could think of buying races/missions/maps (aka content) for this game at some point, but why? if there is GZ Caydr Agorm H, etc, great content creators for spring
.Finally, well i hear SYs word on this.
e:
you are stealing some of the ideas suggested in this forums by some players (myselve too) there.he games themselves could be stored in a repository and rated...
now you hitted it!! ?"?!!The maps and unit definitions should be semi-portable if desired by the developer, and possess markers for their designation if used exclusively within a single game.
semi expendable units and map (content again), just like those use one time then trash cds?... wat are you a MS executive?
How much it takes for a guy to make its own lobby/league/price system and do whatever he wants out of this?, well up to them it goes, but tied to the GPL again. Personally dont play for money, its fun and excitement what drives me into Spring.prizes can be awarded to the more imaginative uses for this engine
Now that tied to spring development ¿¿?? that just sounds like a private enterprise "incentivating" its employers, no thank you.
as we all have figured out, its just a nifty feature it has, want to sell it too?I have observed that the Spring engine does not support only the RTS engine archatecture... but it would also work as a 1st person rpg style,
Who told you that lied.A small membership fee ($2 - $3/month) will enable this game to be backed by a solid network and to achieve the potential that it deserves.
It is not a monthly fee what has taken the TA comunty so far lived till now, or what has made them keep on track till these days, and to the current spring state. Dunno exaclty what it is, but its not a monthly fee for sure.
zwzsg is completelly ontopyc there, it seems your problemto understand him, yeah, you have som problems undestanding some things.zwzsg, it is true that you commonly do have many intelligent thoughts and comments, but it is clear that you did not even read the topic post. Therefore, I will simply refer to that in response to your post.
you are trying to tempt him into something else. this can also lead to that someones "not caring" about such simple thing, not being a jerk here, gimme all the best utils you like, but dont try to "trick" me into giving you what was free and has more value in return.If you make something easy enough for anyone to do
that depends a hole lot on the ppl contributting on it, not fees.but I also want to see how much of a life this thing can take on.
The current server is not much of a complex thing (forgiveme if im wrong betalord), it does the basic hosting for the game, nothig else more fancy, can be hosted in your local machine, it does not take a whole bunch of resources, and needs basic setup. You can talk by some messaging util, then ask your friends to join you server's ip or something. nothing too complex.BvDorp wrote:The whole paid-servers idea is nice. We don't know how long the current situation, with free hosting etc, will last, and at some point in the future, a solution as dj suggested has to be found. And doesn't the massive grow of MMORPG's show the possibilities?
yeah.. he has used words in a smart way, its confusing how he mixed stuff up there, fees, content, the game, bandwith, and the server.. dizzy.Personally, i'm not up to tell what we need, but where i would like this game to move forward too, and has nothing to do with what has been said by that dj.To others: I think dj_oldfield here has a sharp
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dj_oldfield
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 24 Oct 2005, 07:10
A little bit of clarification:
1. The money thing (Since I know that everyone saw it and instantly hated what I wrote):
The money thing was entirely unrelated to the "Total A" portion of Spring (which is presently all of Spring). After going through the source code of Spring, there are a few places where it can become more customizable (E.G. providing property list functionality for the unit definitions, so that all of the units can have the same operational class with unit definitions which are populated by loaded unit data or custom script). Spring really isn't LEAPS AND BOUNDS from creating virtually any kind of a game that a person would want to make.
If there was a way to make Spring that generic (as an engine) and have the game rules, controls, pannels, unit definitions, maping tools, etc. built by a file ("TotalA.GAME") which would be a compiled version of a script file... then novice end users can make entire games very easily which may or may not be RTS games. Yes, you can promote RTS, but it would not be confined to support it.
Beyond this, for Spring to really take advantage of this, a community should be built around it, giving Spring the opportunity to be properly and thoroughly debugged, as well as showing it off a bit. What I was refering to centralizing was games that were submitted (built with the Spring Engine) and known good. This is where the rating system would exist, along with everything else.
So what with TotalA? This and any other game could be packaged with the engine several ways, enabling the engine to look like it is "Just the packaged game" or enabling the engine to be a client for the game. In the case of TotalA (TASpring?) the installer and executable package would feature (TASpring) instead of Spring with TA.
This opens up many avenues for Spring... among which... development can be comprised of various mods and scripts supplied by the community (the way that maps, mods, and such are provided already). Right now, given that the engine has a static datastructure... these mods have limitations in how advanced they can get... so the community is producing simpler updates... but if the files could control the entire game... then you don't have to worry about ... how was it put... "GUILTING PROGRAMMERS TO MAKE UPDATES".
This architecture divides the intellectual property as well, providing ways to make money without treading on copyright. While I know that charging for games is deffinately not the way to go... there are many avenues for a tested and known good product to make money... and those who concieved this product have really done a good job with it... and deserve should see a profit someday.
Now... about the server, servicecs, etc. While it is obvious that many disagree with me... I think that Spring has more potential as it's user base increases. To some degree it has been doing that... but for this to really take off it will need to have some center component (or so it seems to me). Since nobody likes that idea however... I will carry on no longer.
mongus... you brought up a very good point. If people are interpreting my statements the way they have been... I am clearly not explaing correctly.
Please however... understand that soem statements (E.G. People like to have player ratings) are meant in a more general way, not to suggest taht every human alive nor even the majority... bust istead that there are many.
The money thing was entirely unrelated to the "Total A" portion of Spring (which is presently all of Spring). After going through the source code of Spring, there are a few places where it can become more customizable (E.G. providing property list functionality for the unit definitions, so that all of the units can have the same operational class with unit definitions which are populated by loaded unit data or custom script). Spring really isn't LEAPS AND BOUNDS from creating virtually any kind of a game that a person would want to make.
If there was a way to make Spring that generic (as an engine) and have the game rules, controls, pannels, unit definitions, maping tools, etc. built by a file ("TotalA.GAME") which would be a compiled version of a script file... then novice end users can make entire games very easily which may or may not be RTS games. Yes, you can promote RTS, but it would not be confined to support it.
Beyond this, for Spring to really take advantage of this, a community should be built around it, giving Spring the opportunity to be properly and thoroughly debugged, as well as showing it off a bit. What I was refering to centralizing was games that were submitted (built with the Spring Engine) and known good. This is where the rating system would exist, along with everything else.
So what with TotalA? This and any other game could be packaged with the engine several ways, enabling the engine to look like it is "Just the packaged game" or enabling the engine to be a client for the game. In the case of TotalA (TASpring?) the installer and executable package would feature (TASpring) instead of Spring with TA.
This opens up many avenues for Spring... among which... development can be comprised of various mods and scripts supplied by the community (the way that maps, mods, and such are provided already). Right now, given that the engine has a static datastructure... these mods have limitations in how advanced they can get... so the community is producing simpler updates... but if the files could control the entire game... then you don't have to worry about ... how was it put... "GUILTING PROGRAMMERS TO MAKE UPDATES".
This architecture divides the intellectual property as well, providing ways to make money without treading on copyright. While I know that charging for games is deffinately not the way to go... there are many avenues for a tested and known good product to make money... and those who concieved this product have really done a good job with it... and deserve should see a profit someday.
Now... about the server, servicecs, etc. While it is obvious that many disagree with me... I think that Spring has more potential as it's user base increases. To some degree it has been doing that... but for this to really take off it will need to have some center component (or so it seems to me). Since nobody likes that idea however... I will carry on no longer.
mongus... you brought up a very good point. If people are interpreting my statements the way they have been... I am clearly not explaing correctly.
Please however... understand that soem statements (E.G. People like to have player ratings) are meant in a more general way, not to suggest taht every human alive nor even the majority... bust istead that there are many.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
dj_o... Essentailly the "spring server" that client is running right now is a stripped down IRC server. The master server side functions of spring are no where near as taxing as an MMO server which acctually runs syncronization of the game for several players at the same time. 24dollars anually would easily cover the cost of a simple MMO server. Firstly, spring client, like IRC clients is built in such a way that anyone can set up a server for it and have people log onto thier server and play, and secondly, the acctual server mantience costs for a small IRC server are virtually non existant, you could probably run spring world wide and infinately with no less then 6 servers. If we had the current client server running at max capacity the server would cost ~ 1-2 cent per each user on it, and at that rate would pay itself off in weeks.
[edit]NM, I understand the argument better. Ok, in my opinion the idea is potentially good. At some point we're kind of pushing the limits expecting the guys at FU to universially host files for a huge frigging game on just what they earn in addspace. However, I really don't think forcing people to pay for services that they may or may not be using is fair. Let mod makers host thier own files if it becomes too costly for FU to host them, let people figure out thier own map hosting. I've seen ALOT of comunities step up and provide hosting for good content, there is no reason to assume that iall the hosting expenses need to fall on the hands of the people responsible for spring.
I would love to see some more of your plans for expanding the engine... but I really don't see how the spring engine could work too well for anything but a RTS without some MAJOR modification. FPS and RPG games generally use a totally different type of map rendering then the current type that has made spring so popular... However, at the same time I see ALOT of potential within the spring engine to MASSIVELY expand on what can currently be done within the RTS genre. More powerful access to engine mechanics via scripting methods would be AWESOME for spring. Of course you are free to do whatever you want with the spring sourse, if you can make it compatable with the types of map rendering FPS and RTS generally use, I think many of us are more then willing to experiment with whatever you can come up with.
I guess in the end what it comes down to is that you hold a fairly lofty dream. It's not that we all think your dream is bad, it's just that every person here holds thier own dream for where they hope spring will be in the next few years, and when it comes to things like dreaming its hard to convince people that you are any more right about the future then they are. The problem is the thing that brought most of us here was the open sourced project element of this game. You broke the carnal rule of open sourcing and mentioned money. Weather you are right or wrong that instantly guarentees you opposition in any OS comunity. There is probably lots of people here that would even be willing to donate, as long as it is never manditory.
[edit]NM, I understand the argument better. Ok, in my opinion the idea is potentially good. At some point we're kind of pushing the limits expecting the guys at FU to universially host files for a huge frigging game on just what they earn in addspace. However, I really don't think forcing people to pay for services that they may or may not be using is fair. Let mod makers host thier own files if it becomes too costly for FU to host them, let people figure out thier own map hosting. I've seen ALOT of comunities step up and provide hosting for good content, there is no reason to assume that iall the hosting expenses need to fall on the hands of the people responsible for spring.
I would love to see some more of your plans for expanding the engine... but I really don't see how the spring engine could work too well for anything but a RTS without some MAJOR modification. FPS and RPG games generally use a totally different type of map rendering then the current type that has made spring so popular... However, at the same time I see ALOT of potential within the spring engine to MASSIVELY expand on what can currently be done within the RTS genre. More powerful access to engine mechanics via scripting methods would be AWESOME for spring. Of course you are free to do whatever you want with the spring sourse, if you can make it compatable with the types of map rendering FPS and RTS generally use, I think many of us are more then willing to experiment with whatever you can come up with.
I guess in the end what it comes down to is that you hold a fairly lofty dream. It's not that we all think your dream is bad, it's just that every person here holds thier own dream for where they hope spring will be in the next few years, and when it comes to things like dreaming its hard to convince people that you are any more right about the future then they are. The problem is the thing that brought most of us here was the open sourced project element of this game. You broke the carnal rule of open sourcing and mentioned money. Weather you are right or wrong that instantly guarentees you opposition in any OS comunity. There is probably lots of people here that would even be willing to donate, as long as it is never manditory.
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dj_oldfield
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 24 Oct 2005, 07:10
manditory?
absolutely not manditory... I hoped that spending a small amount of money could be an option when others are less desirable... or rather... the pay site is more of a "CLUB" if you will... something geared around the product and the games associated with it.
fps / rpg support can be a future goal... but with respect to software mods... I simply wanted to compartmentalize things while providing a predictable thread of interface... enabling a script engine to control all of the pieces of the game. This would make it possible for us to pick and choose pieces to add... or even write more advanced concepts as needed (new maping libraries could be added dynamically)...
anyway.. doesnt matter... I think I am just going to stay within my scope for a while. I just wanted to throw this out just to see what kind of feedback it got... it is a bit too big to be specific however, and a bit too confusing to be generic. Ill sort of ... deal with that later :).
fps / rpg support can be a future goal... but with respect to software mods... I simply wanted to compartmentalize things while providing a predictable thread of interface... enabling a script engine to control all of the pieces of the game. This would make it possible for us to pick and choose pieces to add... or even write more advanced concepts as needed (new maping libraries could be added dynamically)...
anyway.. doesnt matter... I think I am just going to stay within my scope for a while. I just wanted to throw this out just to see what kind of feedback it got... it is a bit too big to be specific however, and a bit too confusing to be generic. Ill sort of ... deal with that later :).
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 06:15
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 01:10
If you REALLY wish to profit off of Spring then Charge for licensing the engine for COMERCIAL use.
If a MORPG is made from the engine, and it's based on a different server hosted by someone else than the Spring dev team, sure they can charge for users using their server.
FPS is not possible in the forseeable future other than maybe battlefield-esque outdoor maps, even that wouldn't be that possible
Charging for Spring for the multiplayer option is insane as stated by most users, I clearly see you wish to make a buck off of this, ask for donations then if you wish, License the engine for comerical purposes or make a MORPG which you charge the service costs for and a little money for making a profit.
the SY's would not be pleased with this, and neither am I.
For the last 6~7 years I have been making free content for OTA, 4 years have been in developing World Domination, I never charged a dime.
I have seen possibilities for WD to become a comerical game but I am more than willing to pay the devs for license costs when this day comes, I am not willing to pay for a P2P service...
If a MORPG is made from the engine, and it's based on a different server hosted by someone else than the Spring dev team, sure they can charge for users using their server.
FPS is not possible in the forseeable future other than maybe battlefield-esque outdoor maps, even that wouldn't be that possible
Charging for Spring for the multiplayer option is insane as stated by most users, I clearly see you wish to make a buck off of this, ask for donations then if you wish, License the engine for comerical purposes or make a MORPG which you charge the service costs for and a little money for making a profit.
the SY's would not be pleased with this, and neither am I.
For the last 6~7 years I have been making free content for OTA, 4 years have been in developing World Domination, I never charged a dime.
I have seen possibilities for WD to become a comerical game but I am more than willing to pay the devs for license costs when this day comes, I am not willing to pay for a P2P service...
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dj_oldfield
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 24 Oct 2005, 07:10
... doh!
I thought that we already moved passed this and established that nobody was suggesting charging for multiplayer, or doing anything profit related. Further still... I was under the impression taht I had made it more then clear that I was as adoment as everyone else to keep everything that is currently free... free!Charging for Spring for the multiplayer option is insane as stated by most users, I clearly see you wish to make a buck off of this, ask for donations then if you wish, License the...
I simply wanted to put together a portal simular to battle.net for games created with the Spring Engine... which is reasonably high maintainence... and gain contributions from ONLY those who wished to use THAT PARTICULAR PART. Further still... I was suggesting a way to maintain it.
I understand the confusion to some degree with my innitial post... while not entirely the way that it was interperated... but it seems like people would be less likely to say things like
had they actually read the continuation of the topic.the SY's would not be pleased with this, and neither am I.
Go away. Jump off a cliff. Stick your hand in a toaster or something. SHHH! This is open-source, not Bill's house-o-profiteering!
(this worked for my flying transport bug, maybe it'll work here, too)
NOBODY WILL PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY CAN GET FOR FREE WITH NO REDUCTION IN QUALITY, COST, RELIABILITY, FUNCTIONALITY, ETC, ETC. SPRING ISN'T EVEN FULLY-FUNCTIONAL YET. COME BACK IN 2 YEARS.
(this worked for my flying transport bug, maybe it'll work here, too)
NOBODY WILL PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY CAN GET FOR FREE WITH NO REDUCTION IN QUALITY, COST, RELIABILITY, FUNCTIONALITY, ETC, ETC. SPRING ISN'T EVEN FULLY-FUNCTIONAL YET. COME BACK IN 2 YEARS.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
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dj_oldfield
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 24 Oct 2005, 07:10
In hopes to avoid any more comments like those which preceed
THIS IS GETTING OLD
aGorm, Caydr? Have you even read the content of this forum?
aGorm, Caydr? Have you even read the content of this forum?
The preceeding sugggests otherwise.Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:37 am Post subject:
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Go away. Jump off a cliff. Stick your hand in a toaster or something. SHHH! This is open-source, not Bill's house-o-profiteering!
(this worked for my flying transport bug, maybe it'll work here, too)
NOBODY WILL PAY FOR SOMETHING THEY CAN GET FOR FREE WITH NO REDUCTION IN QUALITY, COST, RELIABILITY, FUNCTIONALITY, ETC, ETC. SPRING ISN'T EVEN FULLY-FUNCTIONAL YET. COME BACK IN 2 YEARS.
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
Ahh, I know I should keep my mouth shut.
But I just have to make a point..
Wait, let me drink that chilling cocktail first.
For those screaming there longs out here, open source will not keep money from flowing.
Don't ignore that fact!
Nothing you do will change that.
Please don't kill the people that know this and like to keep control over where money is going.
But I just have to make a point..
Wait, let me drink that chilling cocktail first.
For those screaming there longs out here, open source will not keep money from flowing.
Don't ignore that fact!
Nothing you do will change that.
Please don't kill the people that know this and like to keep control over where money is going.