Metal Amount vs Player Count

[Pxtl]

@Smoth - I've seen maps that include metal patches with inconsistent metal amounts. They do it by being crystal clear about the metal patch value. They make the "high value" patches practically glow with "holy freaking crap I'm important!" highlighting.

Making number-soup on maps is what causes trouble. Players have enough trouble keeping track of value of each unit in the mod.... keeping track of the value of each patch or reclaimable on the map? Yeah, that's hard.

That said, you're quite right that players totally pussed out when you put OTA city-style megafeatures in your map.... but it revealed some ways that BA/ZK are *not* TA and it didn't really work quite right. In OTA, if you wanted to reclaim a megafeature, you had to invest in a lot of storage to avoid wasting it. In OTA, if you wanted to reclaim a lot of small features, it was tedious micro. This slowed down the reclamation process. Give that kind of map to Spring games and the limits are gone.

that said, what people *say* they want isn't what people want anyways. Players *say* they want XYZ, but what the apparently *actually* want is more DSD. Which makes sense, actually - nobody wants to admit they're not hardcore, but DSD allows players to turtle and avoid the overly-agressive gameplay that rips newbies to shreds.

[smoth]

just a quick addendum to my earlier post.

Ivory, I hope I don't seem like I am being coarse with you, it isn't my intent, I am frustrated with the situation as I have begun to see it. I think your post is exactly what we need to see more of FWIW. That is why I am so intense about this thread, I really would like to understand what it is people want so I can give that to them.

[Jools]

Well, I'm manily thinking about the urban map called East End - West End. It has a lot of metal in junk structures, up to 30 000 in those pillars or whatever they are.

But since the reclaim is not gradual, you don't get any metalk until it's all reclaimed, and therefore you can't create units during that time.

So you need to make a lot of metal storages and send a lot of conairs reclaiming. But the metal still arrives in batches, and you can not fully rely of a wreck economy. Therefore the metal is not at all that accesible, and after a while you get the same amount of metal from reclaiming units than from structures.

East West side also has metal spots.

[Johannes]

Smoth, your maps have a lot of reasons they don't mesh too well with many games. The slopes are not clearly defined so you cannot tell where what unit can go without constant use of f2 and even when you have that on, pathing's awkward in a lot of places. Also when the mex layout is an afterthought to the already made geometry, of course it's different to a map where the resource layout has been thought out simultaneously with the heightmap.
And they are kinda just too big, not that big maps can't work but yours mostly have layouts that would better suit a smaller size.

Really, if you're making a map for a game you are not proficient at yourself, then you should probably stick to the tried and true formulas. Which still leave a lot of interesting variation to do.

As far as making a urban looking map work, I'd perspnally just make the buildings unreclaimable (but probably still destructible, and possibly with the buildings giving wrecks when killed) and just a way of making the geography. Then make a "normal" layout with it, destructible buildings would still give it a lot of novelty.

[Johannes]

everything that you can do with a heightmap & texture has been done by now.

Definitely not, just look at the almost complete lack of thought out sea maps just as one example.

[knorke]

Definitely not, just look at the almost complete lack of thought out sea maps just as one example.

I think there are some good sea maps and some more okay ones.
But maybe you are right, some ideas/styles/layouts have not been realized yet. ("starcraft/red alert-style" maps being my personal favorite)
Still I wonder why for example the n-th desert/hills-with-flat-basin-in-middle is made. Many maps make me think "not bad, but I have seen that before somewhere."

[smoth]

Really, if you're making a map for a game you are not proficient at yourself, then you should probably stick to the tried and true formulas. Which still leave a lot of interesting variation to do.

Many grts metalmaps have problems with ZK, would you be interested in fixning them?

gundam doesn't use metal spots.. so if I put them on the maps it is a best guess as a courtesy. if you guys need different mex spots then yes you should definitely comment.

Again, I make my maps for gundam, you guys have the hunter maps if you want the same fomulaic stuff. Why would I do something he has already done. You guys don't care about aesthetics, you already have maps that do the "tried and true" and you complain of boredom. So I won't be the one to do tried and true..

The gundam maps are pretty, that isn't me being egotistical. People used to bitch about metal spots, so once I stopped doing them. people complained, so I said, ok, I will do them from now on and brought them back.

You guys need to understand the maps are for gundam. saying I am making a map for a game I don't understand? no, I am trying to give you a metal map for a map some of you want to play on. YOU guys then complain that my metal maps are terrible and it is the standard bear trap game. You guys say you want something but what you really want is to manipulate me. Like I KEEP saying, don't like the metal map, tell me WHAT TO DO.

The bear-trapper game

"The bear-trapper sucks you in and gives you the come-on, and when you are sucked in, down comes the hatchet and you stay there with a bloody nose, head, or whatever. And if you are fool enough to ram your head against the wall until you begin to bleed and be exasperated then the bear-trapper enjoys himself and the control he has over you, to render you inadequate, impotent, and he enjoys his victorious self which does a lot for his feeble self esteem"

The slopes are not clearly defined so you cannot tell where what unit can go without constant use of f2 and even when you have that on, pathing's awkward in a lot of places.

sup homeslice

Also when the mex layout is an afterthought to the already made geometry, of course it's different to a map where the resource layout has been thought out simultaneously with the heightmap.

Most mappers do metal spots AFTER the heightfield. They don't go, here is a cool metal map, I will make a heightfield now. They go, I have certain terrain I want to play on, how should the metal map work. Honestly metal map is the second thing they do.

And they are kinda just too big, not that big maps can't work but yours mostly have layouts that would better suit a smaller size.

http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-ma ... okedwell-0

http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-ma ... yglacier-0

Again, they are large because they are for gundam which uses larger ranges.

This isn't about layout it is about METAL MAPS. you guys and what you want maps to have for metal maps.

[Google_Frog]

I think the metalmap of gunmetal_009 is fine. To judge from all the whining, some of your maps have pinpointed the differences between BA and ZK maps (although this may also be related to the playerbase). A large difference appears to be that BA requires balanced startspots for each player within a team whereas with communism we couldn't care less.

Anyway, is this the kind of feedback?

[knorke]

the slopes are not clearly defined so you cannot tell where what unit can go without constant use of f2 and even when you have that on, pathing's awkward in a lot of places.

...and that is even true for gundam. eg on some version of desertvalley vehicles had problems leaving the start areas.

[smoth]

Google: yes but I will need some more feedback after I make those tweaks to be sure I got what you needed done.

on metal spots, are we ever going to be able to lua place them?

Knorke: Goof with the map options code where I set the max height too big and fubar'd the slopes. The fix was tweaking the heightfield to be the proper height.

[Cheesecan]

I also don't think most mappers design a map based on a metal map.. That's kind of like designing a car starting with the exhaust pipe..

I recommend using lua metal spots to avoid locking yourself into a specific game.

[smoth]

I recommend using lua metal spots to avoid locking yourself into a specific game.

We DO have that now?

[Johannes]

Yes I know they're meant for Gundam first and foremost. You just seemed to act as if it was just because of the resource layouts that your maps are not popular in BA/ZK/etc. Before this thread I just assumed you just didn't care if your maps are used outside Gundam, what with the pedobears and all.

There really isn't any single formula for metal maps still though. Compare the economic structures on DSD, CCR, or Cooper to each other for example, all can be played 1v1 perfectly and still those metalmap structure, or the games played will hardly resemble each other.

What are you getting at with the Gantelope link? The texture and pathing maps don't match there, not for BA.

Please give some hint on how you want the maps to play though and it'll be easier to help with the metalmaps, at least range of game sizes you want to accomodate.

I also don't think most mappers design a map based on a metal map.. That's kind of like designing a car starting with the exhaust pipe..

Nobody thinks that.

[SirArtturi]

TL;DR
Also too much hazzle over freaking metal layout. Since It's pretty simple.

Here is my formula:

12-20 metal patches /*per each opposing players.

So that would mean something like 7-10 mexes per player where couple mexes in middle are the "contested" ones and positioned according that.

Depending on how much total there will be, and how many players the map is supposed to be, you can choose from 1.8m/sec to 2.2m/sec. There can easily be some 'big spots', like in hunterw's maps, to fasten up the expansion.

It's all about how you want your map to play: fast or slow, porcy or expansive.

Although, as mentioned earlier, there is no single absolute winrar formula, you really can experiment and you should!

CCR is a good example of this. It has really unique gameplay and it is pretty popular because of that. It's very fast paced since there's lot of space to expand and a lot of attracting high income metal. It would not however work that well if the map werent so flat and easily manouverable/raidable.

Imo in some maps it would be more interesting to have not so many spots, but few single, which give high income. It would mean more area control in certain areas.

But as smoth said, spring community does not like so much of experiments. There are too many maps around and people suffer from 'gluttony'. This leads into vanity as new treats don't taste as good anymore.

But smoth, your maps are very good and unique, so I wouldn't be worried, and ignore the blatant 'baw baws'. Some of them may not play well for *A but that is also OK, there are other games in spring also.

And for those map that suits for *A, you now should have enough information, and some kind of ideas how the metal layout should be, right?

[SirArtturi]

I recommend using lua metal spots to avoid locking yourself into a specific game.

We DO have that now?

I thought we do?

[smoth]

What are you getting at with the Gantelope link? The texture and pathing maps don't match there, not for BA.

Seriously, you seriously want to go there. You tell me, what 1 ba unit should the slope be textured to match IT'S PATHING? there are 18 distinct movetypes luckily since the devs are not retarded as of version 7.5

tanks at slope: 18
hovers at slope: 22
Kbots at slope: 36

so which one do you feel should dominate the slope map? I go by the Kbot. which if you look at the pathing vs the clifs.. OMG IT'S LIKE I TOOK THAT INTO CONSIDERATION! It's like worldmachine allows me to texture based on slope! A MIND BLOWING concept.

[AF]

OMG IT'S LIKE I TOOK THAT INTO CONSIDERATION! It's like worldmachine allows me to texture based on slope! A MIND BLOWING concept.

[zwzsg]

I recommend using lua metal spots to avoid locking yourself into a specific game.

We DO have that now?

I thought we do?

Lua metal spots can mean two different things:

• Using Lua to draw some specific texture over high metal spots.
• Using Lua to meddle with the metal concentration at any point of the metal map

Both are now possible.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

cool, what map is that?

[smoth]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27347