BA dynamics (gamelength, techlevel(s), costs)

[Aether_0001]

I think it's a change in general mindset, not a balance flaw in BA. New players are introduced to pro players who gain a lot of area and tech a little to troll and gain eco for pwnage moves. If you're a noob, and you see people tech and do noobstrats and end up with lots of t3 mechs, wouldn't you want to do the same? There are no visible consequences, since it was the pros who were doing it. So in the end you see less tactical maneuvering and more "who-can-eco-the-fastest."

imho noobs should only be allowed to 1v1 until 2 stripe (also, maybe change ranking system so people don't smurf - one major reason is because it's not as fun getting from gold to vet - too much of a time difference, people usually rather want to get multiple grey stars, etc)

Actually, it would be cool if there was some more severe consequence for techers - I agree with implementing no com no control, or self d com = no control. [I know no com no control is an option, we just gotta use it more. Final solution?]

[klapmongool]

A lot of misguided views in this thread, and some truth. The truth is in here. I will also add on what has already been said.

This is an issue due to ultra specialization of most of players you play with in DSD map, not a balanced issue at all.

DSD is designed to be played 5v5 MAXIUMUM. 8v8 (and now 9v9) means far less metal per players which means tecking and making 3 advanced mexes in 6 or 7 minutes will provide you much more metal that if you had expand alone along all the south part. That mean you are not rewarded for the ground you take in DSD, or not enough in comparsion with tecking simple advanced mexes.

If you want to see less T3 and play DSD, just play on host with limited amount of players.

The other day I played my first DSD in a long time (on the tera no air host). What happened illustrates the problem.

Situation: I started top-front and had carp on the 2nd tech spot. Another team mate started the other top-front spot (the boxes were large so he started down the hill, to go for mid hill). We had two enemy noobs at our front. I did a kbot lab, some basic shit and ran for it with my commander. Ate startlab and did some fucking around with a llt and mstore. The only reason why this extremely early pushed worked was because the 2 enemies were nubs: they had a bunch of rockos there and didnt manage them correctly. I put up another lab, some rockos, then got a freaker from carp. So got some cans while pushing more. 1 nmy front guy dgunned the other (from the replay it seemed cos he was teching in the face of annihilation) and selfd ing shortly after. At 9:30 or so I got to the back player, which was sending t2 units... (I won cos my cans and rockos, and ally's rockos, owned the silly pyro's he was sending). At 10 mins it was game over.

So only, and only if, you are facing two total nubs who end up dgunning each other after fast front defeat, a nmy backplayer who builds a t2 lab again after his fus (while he had a freaker already), and a nice freaker from your ally for cans you can make it in time to be able to deal with a player that had uninterrupted techtime. A minute later and I would not have been able to deal with the sheer eco and buildpower that he would have built up.

BA is not made for having uninterrupted teching in the same game as front players. Slowing down would only barely help here. Why?

Imagine playing with evenly skilled teams, and evenly skilled front players facing each other: before a front falls a lot of time passes. Too much time. The back player will have been able to use the metal he did not spend on units directly on expanding his eco. This newly gained eco then provides more resources for more eco expansion. Lengthening the time needed to do this does not fundamentally change this problem (unless done drastically, you'd need far more changes than those suggested above).

What does change this problem is what has been suggested before in this thread, and in many other threads:

Stop playing overcrowded games. Stop thinking that more players make a better game. Stop fucking up BA and your own fun.

Team games add to the strategical and tactical options. Team games increase the fun to be had in BA. Team games are being ruined by overcrowding.

[Wombat]

com ends dammit !

[Cheesecan]

I don't think BA was ever quite as you described, maybe you exaggerated a bit but there is still some truth to it. I think it's because the BA player base is slowly getting worse and worse at the game. It's probably due to the fact that now we only play DSD, Tabula and FolsomDamFinal. No other maps are played anymore.

I think I will quit and go play Starcraft 2 again, BA really sucks greasy balls and Spring online has never been a worse experience for me than now.

[Wombat]

It's probably due to the fact that now we only play DSD, Tabula and FolsomDamFinal. No other maps are played anymore.

thats a big lie, who exaggerated now ? but i agree about player base getting worse.

[Cheesecan]

It's probably due to the fact that now we only play DSD, Tabula and FolsomDamFinal. No other maps are played anymore.

thats a big lie, who exaggerated now ? but i agree about player base getting worse.

My last few games.

I can't remember the last time I played River dale or Metal heck. It's like a conspiracy decided they must never be played again. Doesn't help that most of the popular hosts only have a dozen maps or so you can choose from.

[MrCucumber]

I think some Commander lineage ends would be a great way to solve most teching problems and make larger games fun. I enjoy 1v1's nowadays because they seem to be a game that people play alot of, so there is always a game of it on, and has no teching. Sure 2v2's to 5v5's usually don't have teching, but no one plays them because of this 8v8 whoring. I am sure that most host owners (LOeT) and such will never change their hosts to Commander lineage ends or just Commander ends, out of fear for popularity, but if someone was to make a host with that setting on, and a wide selection of maps, many players would go there because they miss fighting with T1 on a map that is not CCR.

[BaNa]

bobbel to answer your original question (this has puzzled me too since i used to be useful on dsd with t1 front spam but no longer):

- gollies got more hp

- gollies no longer damage self (as much or at all, idk)

- reaper/bulldog got buffed

- fatboy got buffed

- stumpy and jeffy got nerfed

- team comends modoption got added (more selfd teching)

- people learned the simple enough procedure of teching up fast

These are some reasons why T1 matters less in a crowded teamgame on a well practiced map.

[Nixa]

I wonder what map and mod would be played if the current spring community vanished into thin air (which would probably be a good thing)

Problem doesn't lie with T3 (except kargs), it lies with the fact that most useful game winning T2 units can be counted with some form of faggotry scouts/fleas/aks.

[knorke]

none

[Wombat]

spring tanks !

[Aether_0001]

Just play smaller games. Gameplay quality declines after you have more than 5 players on a team in team games. Large games are just hard to balance, and it's easy to set them up so there are people in lonely spots teching/simcitying.

In 90% of large team games I either feel like I have let down my team, my team let me down, balance was too easy (ie noob enemy team), or I didn't do enough (push well into enemy territory, and then the techer behind you steals all kills). Or I get bothered by angry specs who are mad I didn't win hard enough (for real, lol).

[Hackfresser]

i think blowing com for m is the core of the problem. this shouldnt be possible.

[Aether_0001]

Make com death also spawn a 1-way warp hole so everyone can teleport their units onto the spot of comwreck ftw

[knorke]

cool idea actually and opening a wormhole goes well with the "lots of energy contained in commander" idea.
But what would be the entry portal of that wormhole?

[Petah]

About 2 years ago when I was still playing, nukes, bbs, t3 and t2 bomber spam were all but uncommon.

[Wombat]

thats coz of com ends !

[Otherside]

BADSD is the terribad cancer killing spring.

We already determined this a long time ago.

[triton]

BADSD is the only thing which KEEP spring alive.

[Otherside]

BADSD is the only thing which KEEP spring alive.

I am pretty sure if DSD suddenly disappeared, people would keep on playing and most of the old spring players would be happy.

And maybe the nablets who can only play one map will actually learn and become better players rather than hiding behind their safety blanket.