The taint of *A - Page 2

The taint of *A

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

how do u think what they think after seeing MA/BA screens and videos?
how do you think what they think (lolthefuckamireading?) after seeing FF, EE, IW and then they can not play them? Or that other projects are, well projects, and not as polished games as they appear on the screenshots?

Why should BA not be allowed to be showcased here just because it has players? Not MA's fault if the makers of other games do not put their video on frontpage.
If you remove the videos with *A content from spring page, you have no videos left. Yea, thats alot better.

http://springrts.com/media.php?type=videos
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Guessmyname
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Guessmyname »

...

Knorke you prat, we're not attacking BA because it has players, we're attacking it because it uses ancient TA graphics, which give a bad first impression to those not familiar with the engine.

It's hard to bring people in when their first thought is 'looks ugly -> won't be fun', and they won't stick around to listen to any explanations; they'll just move on to whatever else they're doing in their day.

And there are other videos we can use. I know 1944 has trailers, I imagine Gundam and KP have a few etc...

@Wombat, whoops yeah; forgot about them. Still, the point is, we have a range of diverse games that can get people interested better than models near 20 years old which, let's be frank, will only be of interest to existing TA players most of the time.
Last edited by Guessmyname on 22 Jan 2011, 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Wombat
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Wombat »

:D nice sentence i kno

havent seen any pics or vids about FF and EE tbh >>

devs need to move their fingers and upload vids, as far as i remember every game got own vid.

also ba doesnt need any advertise at the website. best advertise it got are 2-5 full servers all the time... BA only hurts newcommers eyes.


lets be honest, every newcommer who wants to play non *TA game will end as BA player anyway XD
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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

http://springrts.com/screenshot.php?id=1103
isnt that ff?

E&E was listed on games page until 10:02, 29 November 2010 according to page history. So it was only removed recently.
It stopped working uhm 2 years earlier or so?

Imo http://springrts.com/media.php should only show game unspecific things like a nice map and maybe some high poly unit to show what the engine can do.
At the moment it is bad because most images do not have a watermark that says from which game they are taken. It appears like they are all from the same game!
I think games should be showcased under game page and then link to their wiki page or homepage. And there they can put whatever they want.
Then no game maker can be sad because his game is still presented with an outdated screenshot.
ie http://springrts.com/screenshot.php?id=1150 "CA+IceUI" <- yeah lol
http://springrts.com/screenshot.php?id=1011 <- does S44 interface still look like this? thanks god no.

fun fact: only one image reads "Balanced Annihilation" while the kernel panic image reads "Spring" on it.

inb4 ololol why didnt you remove EE or sort out the screens now?
Because EE is not my game and i sure will not mess/delete with the stuff someone else created because i wouldnt want someone else to mess with my stuff either. "Community Lead" or "Moderator" or whatever should deal with that drama.
luckywaldo7
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Its not really just BA's old models, its the entire mentality that stuck to it. The instant "revert!" reflex to anything that is new. The attitude that nothing can really be improved well enough, so its better to just keep the same. The whole air of stagnation that surrounds it.

Even some map makers have mentioned becoming discouraged because, hey, what's the point, people are going to keep playing mostly the same old maps they have been playing for years. This same attitude discourages game developers from developing because, what is the point really, people will tell them how bad it is because it isn't BA and then keep playing BA. That is why so many game projects get stuck in the project stage. And worst of all is how is how the engine developers get treated, especially after people refuse to test releases in the first place.

What we need to be doing is looking toward the future, toward what we could be, and doing everything we can to move forward. There is no reason for even a single person on this forum to have nothing to contribute. Hell, I know just about every project is eager to snap up anyone who looks to be a potential contributer.

Not that I am saying this is grounds for the removal of BA. Just the particular reason why everyone hates it.
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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

Even some map makers have mentioned becoming discouraged because, hey, what's the point, people are going to keep playing mostly the same old maps they have been playing for years.
So why do mappers not make maps for say KP or CT? Imo also partly fault of the game devs who want their "game to work on all maps" so after a certain mapstock is made, there is no need for new maps.
The instant "revert!" reflex to anything that is new. The attitude that nothing can really be improved well enough, so its better to just keep the same. The whole air of stagnation that surrounds it.
"omg that sucks" reflex only triggers when a new *A mod is announced with +5% flash speed. Or when someone wants to change some dramatic in BA, because I think BA is trying to be as unchanged as possible because it is basically finished. There will be no "T4" or "hey, lets add XY."
In this case I agree with the people who say "just keep one stable *a mod, be it ba or whatever nobody needs this *a soup."
New games are generally welcomed. Maybe still not played, but at least get positive feedback.
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Wombat
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Wombat »

@ FF - i dunno whats that, but this screenie is another reason to remove it xD

tbh solution to most problems here are game devs/someone who maintain the website. just remove old and send new pics (which they got dammit!) :c
Even some map makers have mentioned becoming discouraged because, hey, what's the point, people are going to keep playing mostly the same old maps they have been playing for years. This same attitude discourages game developers from developing because, what is the point really, people will tell them how bad it is because it isn't BA and then keep playing BA
problem with new stuff is not that people 'like' dsd or some other old map. in my opinion problem is that people know shit about other maps/mods/games/ w/e.

we need BasicBot which will advertise map or game @ main whole day :D


---- side note - i know i will be yelled at for that but... game devs are also responsible for their games to be unpopular. they just make the game and expect everyone to play it.
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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

problem is that people know shit about other maps/mods/games/ w/e.
because it still hard to set up or it appears to be difficult and that maybe scares off.
friend was playing spring sp on my computer while i was afk this morning so lobby,engine, everything was set up, he just had to chose map and press play.
5/5 new maps he downloaded from http://spring.jobjol.nl/ were fail.

http://spring.jobjol.nl/spring/spring-maps/hexfarm
appearently dled because first in list and did not read the "Made for Kernel Panic." or didnt know what it meant.

http://spring.jobjol.nl/spring/spring-maps/crossfirev1
map worked but is really small and units (esp ai) got stuck on the narrow paths

http://spring.jobjol.nl/spring/spring-maps/brycearena
fails with "content error" maybe due to missing startpoints (?)

http://spring.jobjol.nl/spring/spring-m ... llfieldv21
works but is more a funmap with highspeed typemap etc

Maybe just bad luck?
Try yourself, chose randomly and ask yourself "would i seriously want to play this exact map?" Or is this the map "where you can not build on some mex spots" or is it the map "with the bad lightning settings" or is it the map that "always kills my fps" or is the map "so big you take ages to get to your enemy in an 1v1" or is it the map "with the annoying typemap" or is the map "outdated and there is fixed version"?

Appearently alot of the other maps i already had are such noobtraps.
Understable why newbs dont try a new map on their own and stick to what works.
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Wombat
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Wombat »

friend was playing spring sp on my computer
one thing - totally remove SP from spring, or sort the AI's, name them properly, remove the shitty one :/
'which AI's should i use?' is main thing that scares ppl off in my opinion.

@ jobjol - i suggested long time ago to clean the mess over there (replays listed as maps or some files i cant even give a name)

i know it will be called 'being rude' but many, many issues are maps/games devs fault. same as spring devs who dont want to offend anyone by removing their work even if its clearly broken (to be more brutal - pure shit)

even wikipedia is somehow controlled...

i tried testing unknown maps many times, but i wasnt new back then, so i knew what to expect. but ye i get ur point and its obviously true.

---

oh btw, taken from another thread that fits very well here.
(seriously, what a stupid idea to include something that doesn't even work, with the release)
spring fav feature. another reason why newcommers keep away from spring or find it ancient.
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smoth
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by smoth »

Wow, sorry guys been running errands all day. Can you hold off a bit while I try and make a mega reply? there has been a lot said and I feel the thread has been very productive.
luckywaldo7
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by luckywaldo7 »

knorke wrote:
Even some map makers have mentioned becoming discouraged because, hey, what's the point, people are going to keep playing mostly the same old maps they have been playing for years.
So why do mappers not make maps for say KP or CT? Imo also partly fault of the game devs who want their "game to work on all maps" so after a certain mapstock is made, there is no need for new maps.
Because nobody plays KP or CT, so of course mappers would be discouraged from making maps for them. And I disagree about maps, ssmf + featureplacer means some of the newer maps are lightyears ahead of the old ones, and yet I still don't see them being played often.
knorke wrote:
The instant "revert!" reflex to anything that is new. The attitude that nothing can really be improved well enough, so its better to just keep the same. The whole air of stagnation that surrounds it.
"omg that sucks" reflex only triggers when a new *A mod is announced with +5% flash speed. Or when someone wants to change some dramatic in BA, because I think BA is trying to be as unchanged as possible because it is basically finished. There will be no "T4" or "hey, lets add XY."
In this case I agree with the people who say "just keep one stable *a mod, be it ba or whatever nobody needs this *a soup."
New games are generally welcomed. Maybe still not played, but at least get positive feedback.
I meant the revert reflex in particular in regards to engine. There is probably not a single spring release that hasn't had a call to revert.
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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

Because nobody plays KP or CT, so of course mappers would be discouraged from making maps for them.
I know. But "nobody" plays other than DSD either so why do people still make more BA maps?
newer maps are lightyears ahead of the old ones, and yet I still don't see them being played often.
Too hard to get working for all players in a 4v4, ie Seths Ravage with the fog that lagged some players etc. And some of the nicer maps ie smoth's are made for gundamRTS so get no play either because gundam has few players compared to BA.
And with BA's ugly units it does not matter how pretty the map is anyway. "BA on nice map=shit on cake" is posted often enough, all this is really known...
I meant the revert reflex in particular in regards to engine. There is probably not a single spring release that hasn't had a call to revert.
What does that have to do with BA? ie KP's pathing made it unplaybe on many maps too because some have these really narrow passages. Its just that KP has fewer players to whine about it or they just said ingame "well, that sucks" but didnt make a thread about it.
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smoth
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by smoth »

Knorke:
===============================================
There is always lots of "low quality content" made for every game. 95% of the custom maps made for Counterstrike look like this:*screenshot*
yet cs is a game spring is not, I fail to see the relevance.
And YES, spring units still ARE boxxy, DO move in jerky ways and whatnot. So of all released games, S44 and Gundam have maybe best looking units.
I thought I made this animation pretty fluid: acguy running like a girl , what is bad about it?
Look at the infantry of S44, then look at games like Company of Heroes.
Look at the mechs of GundamRTS, then look at the robots in Warhammer:40k
Look at a rtt vs a rts/look at a game with 20 unit and locked camera vs a game with >1000? Truthfully, I still think the dread: link compared to my rgm79[G] link

because of things like the glow effects, normal maps and that 40k is over all grittier so there are more greebles which people do read as realistic. There is also the rust and wear which on a 20ft unit is more visible than on a 70ft unit and lately it seems like gamers believe real=neglected for years in the rain. You'd do better comparing uaw or supcom.

Looking at something like cnc or uaw those units are shockingly low detailed and don't get me started on the months I spent ripping apart the visuals of my fave battleforge. (I eagerly look forward to analyzing ruse.)
not put all these buzzwords
what games are doing that(NO DO NOT MAKE FUN OF YOU KNOW WHO, I WILL REPORT YOU(not just knorke anyone)) ?
what Spring currently is
what in your opinion is that?

I understand that I should possibly upload a gundam video or 2 to the spring site but I felt it would be too big an ego trip to post a video all about gundam rts.

As far as a new 1.26 promo vid, I did one for 1.21 it took a whole day to do and an entire evening to find a good song. I can post more media for the site if you wish but I did not fee right about hogging the limelight.

AF:
=================================================
To be honest, I think the site is fine and do not see a reason that it needs you to overhaul it. I think the old shots are fine, I think ba can stay and I see no reason to drive it out. We all pushed for speedmetal to be driven out, now we have dsd, GG, everyone go home now.

VBS:
==================================================
Why do you rely on spring so much at all? Have your own website, your own installer and, most importantly, your own lobby server
I cannot recall if you have made this suggestion before or if I ever replied in forum. So here is my response about my own server: I dislike the idea of my own server and see it as pointless. I want to talk to the devs, I had to come back to this site. I want to reach other community member, I have to come to this lobby. If I want anyone to bother chatting with me in server, I am not going to ask them to have multiple lobbies open. Really, how egotistical would THAT be? Hey "flozi, you need to join my server so I can bug you?" no that isn't right, we all have enough fing logins to remember. So I do not feel it is worth a try in fact I think it is both counterproductive and a waste of time.

I feel like you guys just keep adding requirements, yes I have an installer now thanks to z, I also have a single player and if I wasn't so busy working on gundam I would have railed godaddy about how one cannot run a cms on my server(because some asshole is choking the php mem). Any questions you have about grts can/should be found here: http://www.indiedb.com/games/gundam-rts if not, then I need to add yet another article, video tutorial or whatever. It isn't like I am not doing my part here man.

Kaiser:
================================================
KaiserJ wrote:its hard to even take comments like that seriously; people who want AAA quality graphics and polish.
I know what they want.
BROWN IS REAL BLOOM and that damned glow stuff that looks like vaseline on a lense. They want over contrast and desaturation.

Wombat:
===================================================
one thing - totally remove SP from spring
Spring.exe works fine for grts, I actually have it do the spawner ai when you go to spring.exe directly so instead of sitting there something actually happens!
or sort the AI's, name them properly, remove the shitty one :/
'which AI's should i use?' is main thing that scares ppl off in my opinion.
The ais are indeed problematic. ALL of them do not work for my project, the only ones that do are the chicken ai. I would love to have a way to deal with this on a project specific level. You have no idea how many emails I get about this shit.
i know it will be called 'being rude' but many, many issues are maps/games devs fault. same as spring devs who dont want to offend anyone by removing their work even if its clearly broken (to be more brutal - pure shit)
What issues are those? be specific, how have I in any way made gundam associated with *A which is the topic of the thread. If you didn't mean it in that context go ahead an list your issues all the same because I thought I covered them.
YAN:
=================================
Also dont mention the engine ever when you advertise
I didn't, someone said gundam rts in the spring engine. The most I ever say is give my hat tip to the engine devs because without them I would not have an engine so I feel it is valid to mention but I do not make my advert about spring at all.

ALL:
======================================
ba etc has just as much right to be here as I do. there is a legitimate effort to supplant the dated models and I am super excited about it! I do not feel that stripping the ba content from the site or any other content is a solution, That content shows a history. It would be nice if the images were sorted and section by YEAR though as would make clear what shots are dated. Perhaps that tag can be retroactively added to all images and required from now on?

This thread is not an attack on ba or any other *A projects just highlighting why spring being seen as *A effects all other projects. People see spring and think it is :
ImageImage
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KDR_11k
Game Developer
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by KDR_11k »

Spring is seen as BA because when people tell others about Spring the most effective advertisement is "it's modern TA!" because people understand what TA is.
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smoth
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by smoth »

I love you man, thank you for the succinct reply.
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Johannes
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Johannes »

Wombat wrote: we need BasicBot which will advertise map or game @ main whole day :D
"come play SA"
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by TheFatController »

I like the art style of BA and am not so lacking in imagination that boxy models spoil a game for me, primarily the gameplay is important.

I don't see why there's a requirement for BA to look as real as possible at all and I don't see it as a failure of BA or lazyness that it doesn't. It succeeds in its goal as a modern 3D TA game.

The guy in the OP probably also refuses to play Minecraft :roll:
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Gota
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by Gota »

TheFatController wrote: The guy in the OP probably also refuses to play Minecraft :roll:
Yeah but minecraft doesnt actually have decent gameplay so i dont think the comparison is valid.
Ba plays great but looks like shit...i dont think anyone can deny that..
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knorke
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by knorke »

smoth wrote:Image
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scifi
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Re: The taint of *A

Post by scifi »

nice knorke lol

anyways i think smoth has the reason on this one, But the problem is you cant force people to play this or that.

Problem here is the fact that there is a BA host with a game ready to start. waiting for other projects games to start is slow and uniteresting.
Lets just do some BA ffa and be done for the day e.t.c....

lets do some BA 1v1 and wait for the day.
Ah a new gundam map (epic awesome detailed map), meh nones playing it ;/ go for some more BA i guess.

One idea would be get some players that would meet at a coordinated time and date, and people would play the mod, gundam tournament for example :!: every friday id join, even if it was just for spectating or enjoying some fast games battling a couple dudes.

Mods for sins of a solar empire do this in a relatively good way, (and requires tungle/hamachi e.t.c.....).

Another example when flop arranged like 3 tournaments in 5 days, the first tournament i was like, meh it wont work (it didnt got that mutch atentiont), the second was hm some amount of players played interesting.
The third had more players and was overall more interesting.

So getting a sequence of tournaments e.t.c... per 5 day ratio can work.
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