Should Arm Solar block LLT fire?

[Wombat]

flak near golly kills DF before it manages to nap it. also, its quite popular issue that without los, DF doesnt emp golly with one shot.

lets be honest, using t2 trans with low rate of fire emp shouldnt be 'good' just for emping t1 units

[albator]

flak near golly kills DF before it manages to nap it.

That the reason eveyone emp flak first then golly...

[Wombat]

ye but then notice how much time it gives core player to react (DF is stealth).

i think its time to move this conversation to another thread xD

[Niobium]

eh, i always felt it was counter-intuitive to have the same sized solars for core and arm block llts differently.

I vote for change, this is only a nubtrap that makes no sense beyond arbitrary "it has always been so" logic.

+1

[Johannes]

Though its not related to solars/llts.

Dragonfly might have picked up 1 lone flak by itself, but the units don't exist in a vacuum... Add another flak, or some other aa, and the dragonfly attempting this will die without doing absolutely no damage. The 1v1 example of them is just inane when it comes to real game situations.

[MidKnight]

I don't see why not. The LLTs are made of metal, and metal isn't flammable.

[Deadnight Warrior]

When I designed that Dynamic Collision Volume gadget I had in mind that all collision volumes of units/buildings should be as tightly as possible wraped around the actual model (same goes for footprints and yardmaps). This increases game realism especially with aiming, where a large hitsphere makes almost impossible that a projectile could miss it's target.
When XTA community accepted me as mod dev, I first added custom collision volumes and better yardmap and footprints to all buildings (units where already done) so that they match as closley as possible to building model.
Thanks to Knorke's hitbox editor, this concept can be easily applied to all games and mods.

So to come to actuall question of LLTs being blocked by solars.
If you swich to manual control of LLT and your crosshair can see your target and that target is inside weapon range, then LLT should be able to shoot at it.

Oh, and when I gave the collision volume definition file along my gadget to TFC, LLTs could fire over solars.

[triton]

Arm Solars blocking LLT fire was an engine change, you must revert it.
Before this change, Arm Solar was blocking slightly more LLT fire than Core Solar, but not completly, when enemy units were close to Solar, Arm LLT was unable to shoot the unit.


OFF TOPIC
- Golly have too much hp.

- Dragonfly emp can save Arm's ass in some situations but I never thought it was imba, since mixed army rape them, it works only versus stupid spam, and stupid spam have to be easily countered.
Only problem I saw was ONE dragonfly napping MANY t2 units, and here it is imba.

about Energy :

Avanced Solars
Core Metal/Energy cost : 348/3703
Arm Metal/Energy cost : 343/4725

Advanced Fusions
Core Metal/Energy cost/HP : 9107/44730/8500
Arm Metal/Energy cost/HP : 9109/64115/7150

Geothermal
Core Metal/Energy cost/HP : 1420/24568/3720
Arm Metal/Energy cost/HP : 1520/24852/3240

Not to mention than Core normal solars cost less metal than Arm's one, I dont compare Fusions since Arm Fusion give 1000 Energy and Core Fusion give 1100 (Core fusion cost a bit more but I think they are better in most case)

Only good thing for Arm are Wind Generator which cost 15% less than the Core's one.

Core can have a better eco with same amount of Metal extractors.
Only wind can balance this but you can't make efficient wind farm on many maps.

Core have more Energy than Arm for same amount of Eco spend on it.




SO
Raiders can be a bit less cost efficient than Stumpy ^^

[albator]

Arm Solars blocking LLT fire was an engine change, you must revert it.
Before this change, Arm Solar was blocking slightly more LLT fire than Core Solar, but not completly, when enemy units were close to Solar, Arm LLT was unable to shoot the unit.


OFF TOPIC
- Golly have too much hp.

- Dragonfly emp can save Arm's ass in some situations but I never thought it was imba, since mixed army rape them, it works only versus stupid spam, and stupid spam have to be easily countered.
Only problem I saw was ONE dragonfly napping MANY t2 units, and here it is imba.

about Energy :

Avanced Solars
Core Metal/Energy cost : 348/3703
Arm Metal/Energy cost : 343/4725

Advanced Fusions
Core Metal/Energy cost/HP : 9107/44730/8500
Arm Metal/Energy cost/HP : 9109/64115/7150

Geothermal
Core Metal/Energy cost/HP : 1420/24568/3720
Arm Metal/Energy cost/HP : 1520/24852/3240

Not to mention than Core normal solars cost less metal than Arm's one, I dont compare Fusions since Arm Fusion give 1000 Energy and Core Fusion give 1100 (Core fusion cost a bit more but I think they are better in most case)

Only good thing for Arm are Wind Generator which cost 15% less than the Core's one.

Core can have a better eco with same amount of Metal extractors.
Only wind can balance this but you can't make efficient wind farm on many maps.

Core have more Energy than Arm for same amount of Eco spend on it.

SO
Raiders can be a bit less cost efficient than Stumpy ^^

a lit bit less is still about +40% more E cost (taking bt into about). I dont have the same definition of "little bit" but I can be fine with that since core have blades. I dont mind arm still be the best choice on ccr like map.


I think almost everyone agrees about reverse golli back to 7k hp, any (argumented) objection ?


Talking about reversing cost, who does not agree with revearsing E-cost of panther/croc to last value ?

Croc is an amphib unit, you are supposed to pay for that ability
Panther is spammable by engineer and have second weapon, its really low E-cost makes it the T2 stumpy even it is design as a raider and not as a tank.


About dragoon fly, i definitely maintain that an air unit costing half much the price of the unit whose only design is to kill this unit class should not be able to nap it.

It is like if one blade was able to sustain fire of slasher and emp it: as a reminder, blade die in one shot.

Plus Dragon fly is a transport, make stilleto instead if you want to emp.

So let dragon fly like that and triple hp of blades...

[Johannes]

About dragoon fly, i definitely maintain that an air unit costing half much the price of the unit whose only design is to kill this unit class should not be able to nap it.

It is like if one blade was able to sustain fire of slasher and emp it: as a reminder, blade die in one shot.

Plus Dragon fly is a transport, make stilleto instead if you want to emp.

So let dragon fly like that and triple hp of blades...

2 blades are enough to emp 1 samson, and cost less (except in buildtime, but dragonfly takes long to build too). Still it's balanced somehow...

[ginekolog]

I would leave golly HP, allready very expensive unit that is hard to use, slow and weak on his own. I take 2-3 reapers over goly every time.

[scifi]

if people talked about this some time ago , it would be a flame war, and i recall a couple people talking about it being completly hard liners, in the sence DO NOT TOUCH

a engine change apeared changed a bit the gameplay noone noticed or 1v1 playability didnt changed that mutch.

So imo let it be as it is, people are used to it i see no person complaining or raising mutch mess about the topic so its ok to stay as it is.

it is nice however that this thread serves another purpose to reveal other balance issues that BA has.

Triton has revealed a couple issues that BA has, but to be honest Spring and BA gameplay needs an overall that can only be brougth by the people who are making the BA model replacement.

you may think that chaging models doesnt cause mutch changes, trust me CA didnt changed a bit since version 2304 in terms of core balance of units up until 8000 version and people still made comparison between both of the versions saying how they were completely diferent gameplay wise.

so back on topic, keep it as it is, and nice changelog on the new BA

goly is good as it is imo. Its an advantage of a fast tier 2 unit to go for as imediate burst in your assault same as the fatboy.

[albator]

@ Sifi : once again, purpose of balance is to make all unit worth using, not making some op tactics counter balance others. Golli and dragoon fly are part of them and balance each other, still, it makes reaper and pitbull less of use to give just an exemple.

[scifi]

@ Sifi : once again, purpose of balance is to make all unit worth using, not making some op tactics counter balance others. Golli and dragoon fly are part of them and balance each other, still, it makes reaper and pitbull less of use to give just an exemple.

hm in what way do you consider goly OP, as in HP DPS area of effect

i like theyr dps and area of effect and i like using them in 1v1s or team games, maybe reduce Hp, some sort of ligth nerf wouldnt be bad i supose but still reapers and pitbulls thats a whole new level of balance.

changing with theyr parameters requires sound testing, since we talking about small fixes wouldnt go that far.

[Gota]

Just you got so many units in t2 man...The game needs to be stretched more so every unit in t2 can have a proper role.

[Wombat]

tbh only change i would see for golly is decreasing turning speed.

[Johannes]

Hp nerf is the best solution really. With better support and good micro golly will still be as effective as ever, since it's very possible to prevent a high ranged unit from taking damage.
Just that it has some weakness to cover than just being slow (which is not really a problem once it reaches battlefield, early you can't kite it with anything anyway). If it's more fragile damage dealer it's much more interesting unit than a slow tank that has good everything.

Comparing golly to fatboy... It has more speed, over 2x damage output, more accurate (faster) bullet, more hp. If fatboy is worth rushing for what does that make golly?
And reapers, they don't really help fighting t1 units at all - why pick them over a golly? If you want such units early why notjust stick to t1. Or get crocs ofc...

[Gota]

Why not buff repears instead of nerfing golly?

[Johannes]

Why not buff repears instead of nerfing golly?

That's a bad direction, with recent changes t2 units are too good vs t1 units already. It's stupid if you should stop making t1 (apart from jeffies and aks which are unreplaceable) as soon as you've got access to higher tech lab.

[BaNa]

I recall the levelers and gollies selfdamage got decreased at one point. (may be wrong about the golly) I would be for putting it back to full selfdam, as then the ultimate counter of just taking your cheap shit units in close would work better.