Next BA update and sequel?

[SirArtturi]

Maybe the main reason the Balanced Annihilation 'brand' is still going so strong is because of the very little change in the mod's design, and maybe the community doesn't want an evolving mod (case in point: the replies in http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23941).

I think this is a double edged sword. If such brand exists, you have taken it too dramatically as a main rule, that you slavishly follow.

And forgetting the fact, that there is still a lot of players, including me, who would like to see BA progressing and fixing the flaws and has stopped playing and lost interest due that. BA has not reached status quo yet!

It isn't about evolving and losing the essential gameplay. It's about progressing, moving forward, polishing. I have discussed about the flaws of BA in several other similar threads and Im not going list them all through again. We know them, we admit them, we agree them - at least majority.

What I'd like to see first is BA taking more steps improving the outlook. To be honest, the game looks merely decent from a distance and can't bare closer look: textures, models, effects, all of them so 90's. We should open the project for a standing developer of graphical design, who thus would be more commited to his work and create more consistent artistic style. Current situation is bad, theres several detached modellers who all have their own visual angle on how BA should look like. It leads to a mish mash, similar problem which CA been having.

Second, the combomb and comnap phenomenan is intolerable. It's a flaw that has caused many players to flee from BA. CA took drastic step and get rid of the whole thing. SA is a more like a compromise. Good news is that you dont need to do even that dramatic measures. You will get big step forward by just excluding either one from the gameplay.

I'd be careful with the explosions and combombs. I'd see the napping more of a problem than combomb, since combomb isn't possible in 1v1 though napping is. Napping is also easier to exclude. Just restrict transport loading enemy units. Or even more conservative solution would be allowing enemy shoot the transport, which is also logical, but still makes the napping possible in theory while being not as abusive! This will also fix the OP:ness of dragonflies, which are awesome units, but too awesome: They shouldnt be defending units, but just a transports. Personally I'd restrict enemy napping and balance it by increasing the rate of fire paralyzers gun.

I wouldn't like to see this as a personal attack towards you TFC. You have been doing great job. Yet however, too much authority has fallen in to the hands of one person. The project should be more open and take more official members to the group. It would motivate and bind them together for the same cause.

[Niobium]

Maybe the main reason the Balanced Annihilation 'brand' is still going so strong is because of the very little change in the mod's design, and maybe the community doesn't want an evolving mod (case in point: the replies in http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23941).

That thread mainly consists of people misrepresenting nixas efforts as 'DSD 8v8' focused and then attacking the concept of 'DSD 8v8' instead of the mods actual changes.

Other than that there were quite a few posts suggesting changes (i.e. kixus massive list) and quite a few people who enjoyed the changes that were made (some of whom disagreed with them before trying it out). So I don't think that the thread indicates that people want a stagnant mod at all.

[Johannes]

You suggest (and I don't agree with this) that Spring would die if BA remains the same, but put BA in the wrong hands and players are likely to be driven off as they will not wait around to see if things get better if the mod becomes (in their opinion) unbalanced or unfun.

Again true, and again not looking to take over BA just give BA 2 a chance to get played and explored

Nobodys stopping it from getting played, nobodys just interested in playing it atm

[Wombat]

just dont touch ba and make own game. sorry its so time draining and u cant just copy-paste.

everyone will be happy

[Nixa]

just dont touch ba and make own game. sorry its so time draining and u cant just copy-paste.

everyone will be happy

So you're saying start from the ground up to create a mod with the same base as BA... that's an interesting approach I guess.

We don't plan on touching BA, but rather since BA is considered a finished project start the development of new BA altogether (BA 2) with multiple modification areas (not just balance). It would be nice to let the community have a chance to voice their opinion rather than the same 10 or so people on the forums. Again since we will still be aiming for Balance (and hence the name of BA), what's the point of naming it something completely random when it'll be based around the same core aspects?

Sure I agree it will have to be clearly marketed as a seperate mod to original BA, hence the use of BA 2 v1.00 rather than BA v8.00. CS:S and CS 1.6 are a good example of this really, both can exist along side each other

[KaiserJ]

your work on BA2 should be acknowledged for its own merits rather than as part of a corpse of BA.

your mod is good, people will play it.

welcome to why other spring mod devs sometimes get upset :D

[ginekolog]

BA is the only game in spring that is stable, balanced and mature.

Do not try to change that please, many people including me would loose interest if game changes too much at time. Even models should stay the same or similar imo, they are great to spot difirences between units from birds eye view.

Make own new game and be sure players will try it and give it a chance.

And don't say TFC is not for progress, he even made EA as game to test new stuff and possibly import good changes in BA.

TFC is as good BA maintaner as Noize was. GJ.

[Nixa]

BA is the only game in spring that is stable, balanced and mature.

Do not try to change that please, many people including me would loose interest if game changes too much at time. Even models should stay the same or similar imo, they are great to spot difirences between units from birds eye view.

Make own new game and be sure players will try it and give it a chance.

And don't say TFC is not for progress, he even made EA as game to test new stuff and possibly import good changes in BA.

TFC is as good BA maintaner as Noize was. GJ.

Yeah, not sure if you read my last post but just briefly. BA and BA 2 will be seperate, 1 for those that like the norm, 1 for those that would like a refresh and current project.

Hopefully both could be interchangable

[Forboding Angel]

BA is the only game in spring that is stable, balanced and mature.

[Wombat]

So you're saying start from the ground up to create a mod with the same base as BA... that's an interesting approach I guess.

and asking someone third time to share u his work is very lame approach.

seriously, this is hilarious. how many threads or posts TFC needs to do so ppl understand ? NO, means NO, i think. u want another ba like 'pro annihilation' where u just change numbers and call it own mod. seriously, even senna alone did more than u, steenkamps

[Jazcash]

BA is the only game in spring that is stable, balanced and mature.

I lold'.

[Nixa]

So you're saying start from the ground up to create a mod with the same base as BA... that's an interesting approach I guess.

and asking someone third time to share u his work is very lame approach.

seriously, this is hilarious. how many threads or posts TFC needs to do so ppl understand ? NO, means NO, i think. u want another ba like 'pro annihilation' where u just change numbers and call it own mod. seriously, even senna alone did more than u, steenkamps

Guess you would be in the original BA camp then wommy?

Or would you even be in a camp? Haven't seen you play in a while

[UAF]

Take if from a noob that visit the forums.
Right now Spring == BA. This is the only mode I can relaibly play, and even that's not accurate.

There is ALWAYS at least one BA 8v8 DSD game running.
Sometimes there are 2-3 more games with decent amount of people.
One of the nice things in Spring (BA) is that it fits large team games ratehr well. The map should obviously support it (and unfortunatly DSD isn't a 8v8 map), but this create an interesting situation.

Assuming most people are like me, when I open the lobby I just want to enter a game and play.
CA, AA, XTA, BA, SA, Chicken A are of LESS importance, but since everyone play BA (which is, IMO, good) this the game I'll join.
I'll even play 8v8 DSD.

What Spring needs is more players. This is a topic for another thread on a different forum.

What BA need is small balance changes, bug fixes, and better graphics.

Changing fundomental parts of BA and calling it BA v8.0 is not right.
Calling it BA2 is... perhaps ok. If TFC is the one in charge of BA at the moment, then I think it is up to him to decide if he agree with a mod being called BA2 or not.


As for starting mods difficulties - The solution would be related to Spring general lack of people problem.
I'm willing to give you my two cents on why I think Spring is dying instead of growing if someone would start a thread about it.
Personally I love BA, and I love what the Spring engine have to offer so I think it is a pity that the community is shrinking instead of growing (and also seem to have a gorwing percentage of assholes).


td;dr version:
No major changes to BA please.
New mods should have new names. If BA2 is similar to BA but with several core changes, then the name BA2 is fair IF TFC agrees.
If not then just get new graphics (should be done regadress actually), get a new name, and get people yourself (related to Spring general lack-of-players problem).

[luckywaldo7]

So you're saying start from the ground up to create a mod with the same base as BA... that's an interesting approach I guess.

and asking someone third time to share u his work is very lame approach.

seriously, this is hilarious. how many threads or posts TFC needs to do so ppl understand ? NO, means NO, i think. u want another ba like 'pro annihilation' where u just change numbers and call it own mod. seriously, even senna alone did more than u, steenkamps

You are a bit confused I think. All of TFC's work is GPL'd, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone using it as long as they keep it GPL. Pretty much there is nothing from stopping anybody from making a zillion tiny BA spinoffs.

The issue is that they want the name. Like I said before, it basically works like brand recognition, that has been going since the days of AA.

[Gota]

BA is the only game in spring that is stable, balanced and mature.

Do not try to change that please, many people including me would loose interest if game changes too much at time. Even models should stay the same or similar imo, they are great to spot difirences between units from birds eye view.

Make own new game and be sure players will try it and give it a chance.

And don't say TFC is not for progress, he even made EA as game to test new stuff and possibly import good changes in BA.

TFC is as good BA maintaner as Noize was. GJ.

Listening to such people means death of TA for spring.

About other mods not being popular...that is their own fault...It has nothing to do with BA.
Sure BA rode on the initial success of TA for spring and AA but what TA dev is making as much effort now as was made when TA for spring was just starting...?
Back than engine devs and "mod" devs were mostly one..and it was new and exciting..a TA clone in 3d for free...
This is very old news now and does not excite anyone.

Now standards are higher.
You need to have a website, an installer and look for people by advertising your website/game.
You need to have way better visuals solid gameplay and all the peripherals and you need to have all of these to have a chance..
More importantly you need to make your game meet the standards of contemporary players outside the community, not old TA fans like Ginekolog for example.
Who needs another mod that changes fbi a bit and changes a few models..It will not bring new players since it sitll has no advertisment no website and it still only looks at players who ar ealready inside the community...
With such a mod it makes no difference if it's TFC's BA or Nixa's BA.

Just patching up a few models scripts and unit defs is not enough...

[Nixa]

Now standards are higher.
You need to have a website, an installer and look for people by advertising your website/game.
You need to have way better visuals solid gameplay and all the peripherals and you need to have all of these to have a chance..
More importantly you need to make your game meet the standards of contemporary players outside the community, not old TA fans like Ginekolog for example.
Who needs another mod that changes fbi a bit and changes a few models..It will not bring new players since it sitll has no advertisment no website and it still only looks at players who ar ealready inside the community...
With such a mod it makes no difference if it's TFC's BA or Nixa's BA.

Just patching up a few models scripts and unit defs is not enough...

All things we have the resources to do (there's about 10 vets just talking about and willing to participate in this right now alone). Really I'm being polite here, I know we could happily call it BA 2 and swing things into gear but I'd rather at least try discuss it with as many opinions first.

Why choose BA? well I think we can all agree to some point BA is the best of the spring mod crop (owing to it's TA origins and it's consistant development). However, I and many many others disagree with the notion that a few people can believe it's development is now "complete" (which is open to debate, not which I want to open here) and then disallow a sequel (not so fine, especially in open source). Nuts

Lets be honest with ourselves here, the reason spring is dying is because of BA DSD 8v8. There is 3 (Three) issues here. 1 - DSD, 2 - 8v8, 3 - BA. Of the 3, we only have the power to change 1 - BA. I am of genuine belief that BA development can bridge the gap between 8v8 DSD and 2v2 comet. In the risk of going off topic, I won't mention how.

[UAF]

I really don't think 8v8 BA DSD is the reason Spring is dying.

[pintle]

They said BA was balanced/stable/done then completely changed t1 kbots by adding rezbot.

There are _so_many_ problems with current BA, but most people are too busy stumpy spamming on DSD to notice.

Imo 90% of the BA players play because of critical mass, not because they are some mod conisseur who chose BA (nobody I know who plays multiple mods chooses BA first) but because it has critical mass of players.

Don't kid yourself TFC: Caydr crammed UberHack onto the engine, then Noize and co stole that, and then you took up when he got bored, that eventually turns out to be the "best" game on the engine- it is purely circumstantial, and the "stable balance" etc you talk about most people have 0 point of comparison for and just lap it up cos DSD is easy and there is always a game up.

[UAF]

Imo 90% of the BA players play because of critical mass, not because they are some mod conisseur who chose BA

This is very true.
I like BA because of the big battles, shields, and macro emphesize over micro.
But I suspect that's the same for most mods here.

[CarRepairer]

Imo 90% of the BA players play because of critical mass, not because they are some mod conisseur who chose BA

This is very true.
I like BA because of the big battles, shields, and macro emphesize over micro.
But I suspect that's the same for most mods here.

Your suspicion is right. NOTA has huge battles (going by unit count - the units are shrunk), ZK has fancy shield stuff going on (mobile shields, shields that link up) and KP is the most macro mod around. You can find fun features in any game around here.

Since I'm posting here I might as well say I think Nixa and Nio are being cheesy. If they want to make their own game they can do so on its own merits without taking the name of BA. If they believe they are carrying on in BA's spirit and should be a part of BA, TFC would have already let them join his team.

So they are either saying:

"Our game isn't good enough to stand out on its own."

or

"We disagree with the owner of BA about what BA should be."

It's one or the other.