fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

[Sucky_Lord]

I thought your point was that scout spam didnt lead to long games because it was so OP?
Edit: I get it, youre saying it turns to eco spam because other team has to scout spam too (though i disagree)

Honestly, in 6 years of playing ive never seen a scout spam after ~7 minutes into the game have any effect other than killing the odd mex, or damaging goliaths and fatboys. Ive seen scouts get into people's bases a few times, but the t2 buildings are so strong anyway that the scouts cant do any damage, and the player just builds an LLT.

[Johannes]

many units just plow through scouts, and won't die to penes or snipers nowhere fast enough to 1-sidedly lose to such composition. Of course if you mix some aoe units in, you can deal with the flashes and such better, but if you have such versatile and expensive combination it should be powerful too no? And still can be beaten with the right unit mix and better micro, or just having enough stuff more.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with the game having a small stalemate period occasionally, then you have those choices to invest in econ, get air, or just a stronger more versatile ground army, tons of subtle choices, I don't see how that is boring, at least with good teams (in 8v8 yes it is). It's extremely rare in any case outside 8v8 dsd, but if you dont like that, why not pick a map less prone to it?

And yep I don't think anyone spoke of the early scout spams, where of course your own scouts are needed... But thats totally another case, from late game ak/jeffy/flea/ spam

[Niobium]

Click con
Click veh lab picture
Click build site
Click scout
Click repeat
Click move waypoint

6 mouse clicks + 20 seconds and now the enemy can no longer use any low-rof units as they waste their shots, or any high aoe units as they hit friendlies, unless they want to undergo copius amounts of individual unit micro against the enemy who could go AFK after those 6 clicks if he so desired.

If they want to actually advance on the scout player then they require a whole lot of light anti-scout units, which is totally possible to do, but that's just to deal with the scouts, ignoring the enemies own army which is not under the same no-low-rof, no-high-aoe, high anti-scout composition restrictions imposed on your army.

All it takes is 1 person on the enemy team spending 6 clicks and a little metal on scouts, and all of your teams armies are severely handicapped.

[Pxtl]

i have to admit i never used crocs in land battles, but looking at the stats i feel that they are inferior to raiders in this role. their projectiles are even slower, the aoe is the same

You misunderstand - the Crocs aren't meant to be some magical anti-raider unit. Crocs are the closest thing to an L1 unit you can buy a the Core L2 veh lab, that's why I suggest them. Use them as support-units to back up your real anti-raider, the Goli. The Goli will be emptying this massive river of scouts, while the Crocs will be providing a nice screen to keep the critters away.

Obviously a true raider like a Flash is better than a Croc for taking out scouts, but Crocs aren't bad. Tell the Goli to hold fire and let the Crocs do the cleanup.

But really, as a Core player you should get a T1 veh lab. You need T1, at least a little, and the Core T2 veh lab doesn't have an engineer in it (unlike the Arm T2veh or the Core T2bot)

[Hackfresser]

Tell the Goli to hold fire and let the Crocs do the cleanup.

i guess i gotta try that. just a more elegant solution, like better golly ai would be better.
units behaving less then optimal when i dont watch them like the little kids they are is ok. but units either ripping their fellow tanks apart or doing nothing is less then cool imo

[Hackfresser]

Click con
Click veh lab picture
Click build site
Click scout
Click repeat
Click move waypoint

6 mouse clicks + 20 seconds and now the enemy can no longer use any low-rof units as they waste their shots, or any high aoe units as they hit friendlies, unless they want to undergo copius amounts of individual unit micro against the enemy who could go AFK after those 6 clicks if he so desired.

If they want to actually advance on the scout player then they require a whole lot of light anti-scout units, which is totally possible to do, but that's just to deal with the scouts, ignoring the enemies own army which is not under the same no-low-rof, no-high-aoe, high anti-scout composition restrictions imposed on your army.

All it takes is 1 person on the enemy team spending 6 clicks and a little metal on scouts, and all of your teams armies are severely handicapped.

i dont think that this is that such a bad thing. sure,that ak stream requires very little mirco and resources. but countering it with razorbacks isnt so hard either. vanguards in the back will, without micro, waste their shots, but at least they wont kill the razorbacks.
fatboys can be protected with zeus.
but gollies will kill friendly units.

[Johannes]

Tell the Goli to hold fire and let the Crocs do the cleanup.

i guess i gotta try that. just a more elegant solution, like better golly ai would be better.
units behaving less then optimal when i dont watch them like the little kids they are is ok. but units either ripping their fellow tanks apart or doing nothing is less then cool imo

Tampering with the AI isn't elegant. ATM you know how the unit AI acts, and what the possibilities are to controlling your units, and how the enemy can control his. If every unit starts getting its own targeting priorities, it is much harder/unintuitive to find out how to properly use/abuse the targeting of this or that unit, when things are not universal.

Having a good unit combination, now that is elegant.

[albator]

you probably all know how weasels and fleas counter fatboys and goliaths.
do you see this as an issue?
i thought that maybe the tactical ai needs some sort of update, so these units will only fire at stuff thats actually worth killing? microing them with hold fire and such is somewhat awkward.
also, t2 vecs dont really have a good counter for fast-moving units. levelers are good, but i dont like having to keep that t1 lab around. maybe add a t2 tank with a riot gun, or a triple llt or something like that? raiders just dont fill that role properly.
i also think that core t2 vecs need some sort of buff. arm shouldnt have better t1 kbots, better t1 vecs AND better t2 vecs.

opinions?

Not an issue at all, it actully good since it prevent biggest eco to win and allow tactical/strategical gameplay.

If there is an issue about fatboy, it should be why engineer can build it whereas goliat cannot be build by freaker (I admit goliat should not be built by freaker, it is op)

Still waitting for a E-cost reverse for croc and panther...

[Pxtl]

Meh, why sweat the fatboy? It's better than it used to be, where the Consul used to have a great spread of Arm L2 kbots, making the Arm L2 bot lab almost completely pointless.

Maybe just put the Bulldog there?

@Sucky_Lord

The Stumpy is better than the Raider. Since the Stumpy is the backbone of BA, that's important. And the Leveller really doesn't get much use once the game moves away from light tanks - their range is just too short and they can't function in groups.

[ginekolog]

I use scouts (AK) in all phases of game. 100 AKs allways comes handy. So where is the problem? Just use em as scouts and to draw fire.

PRO tip: they kill scout veh as flies

SO solution to your "problem" is to create a nice mix of units.

[Hackfresser]

i understand how mixing units solves this problem. i complain that all tech stages in this game can build a good counter, with the exception of t2 core vec. having to keep the t1 lab is a clear disadvantage.
i also suggest an upgrade to unit ai. this could even be done with a widget i guess.

[Sucky_Lord]

Ok i get hack's point now, it can be hard to counter t1 scouts with a t2 core veh lab. My solution: dont make your team mates pissed off with you ;D ask them for help!

[Gota]

why is it such a disadvanatge to have a t1 lab..its only a few hundred m..not that big of a deal if you you remember a reaper costs 500+ m.

[Johannes]

Most of the time when you have teched, you have enough economy that it makes perfect sense to have 2 labs in order to have your nanos not idle.

Naturally there are exceptions, like playing a map where you get 5 mexes per player for one, ofc you might stall harder in such environment

[Gota]

dude core t2 vehi lab has goliath...need i say more..

[Wombat]

SO solution to your "problem" is to create a nice mix of units.

the end

[[RRU]RockmoddeR]

*applauds wildly for usage of common sense*

[Wombat]

high five ?

[[RRU]RockmoddeR]

Major high five. Just today I teamed up with Mirlitelle and did a golly rampage. I provided the golly, and Mirlitelle provided 5 or so levelers and 3 slashers + con for golly. The slashers killed probably 20 or so bladewings that would've stopped the golly, and the levelers killed the kbotspam. We took out 4 players that way. Let's hear it for unit mixing!

[Wombat]

:D n1