XTA mutator discussion

[Gota]

stuff

I'm not really sure how any of XTA's Balancing or gameplay has anything to do with real life warfare..
Why compare a horse to a duck or vice verse?

It is very hard to invent new ways of playing quickly when the community is so small and people refuse to truly stress test the balance by playing 1v1s..

The scouts are perhaps a bit too powerful but surely not greatly..
They are very expensive.
Compare the jeffy and the flash(this is info from xta 9.55 but im sure nothing has changed about these 2 units throughout all the intermediate versions):
Jetffy does less dps and has less hp than the flash.
It costs 10% less in metal than the flash, true, but 50% more in energy and roughly 200% more in build time.

It's only advantage is its speed which is indeed much higher(almost double the speed of the flash).
In many games the flash/gator and the pw/ak can do the role of the scout almost as well.

From my personal experience BA resolves scout harass with the LLT and SA with the MT.
XTA has a problem with both because LLTs are very expensive compared to BA and unlike in SA scouts can run into the base and hide behind allied structures from MT.
Of course in BA the commander can also make the llt as oppose to the commander in XTA which lacks the ability to make the MT.

In XTA i think it would favor the mod to make scouts less of a harass unit and more of a pure scout unit.
I can think of 2 things to do with the scout to achieve this goal.
1)Nerf the scouts HP somehwat and increase it's line of sight.
In XTA the scout's line of sight is actually lower than the flash tank's!

2)allow the commander to construct missile towers.
This will allow players to make 1 or 2 of them early on and since the commander has plenty of build power and since you will be able to position them as you go around making mexes instead of having to waste time to walk there again later it would work better than how it does now.
If this is done the special dmg the MT already has versus air units can than be reduced somewhat as a counter.
This has the potential to make starts a bit smoother especially when one goes air and one goes land at the beginning.

IMO both solutions will fit XTA and make it better.

[Deadnight Warrior]

This topic is called "Mutator Discussion", so make a mutator with your vision of XTA, let's play it and let's see how that will work out. At least test it in a simulated 3v3 with AIs.

My latest mutator (available at http://www.mediafire.com/?g3584ixv9we5erl and http://filebin.graasmilk.net/XTAPEV9642b.sd7) has lots of changes to building footprints and AA missiles are completly diferent from one used now (they might seem somewhat OP).
To be exact:

• Removed dancing for all guided missiles, they now shoot in a slight parabolic (arc) trajectory towards target
• Some further BOS/COB optimizations and small fixes
• Default starting commanders changed to non-upgradeable
  Non-upgradeable commanders gain various abilities with combat experience like:
  • Lineary increasing sight (up to 1.5x), radar (up to 3x), sonar (up to 2x) and laser (up to 2.5x) range and movement speed (up to 1.5x)
  • additional weapons at certain XP tresholds
  • Armour (0.8 damage modifier)
• Custom collision volumes for all factories (no longer a sphere)
• Added a hitsphere scaledown gadget to reduce exagerated default 3DO collision volume
• Reduced damage by 25% and edge effectivness to 0.2 of Raven rockets (still stockpilable but require 250E/s instead of 150E/s, 12 r/min)
• Footprints of many buildings adjusted to match actual building size and shape, customized collision volume as well
• Fixed COB error spam when using ARM Decoy Commander's fake D-Gun (bug brought to life in 9.641b)

[babbles]

I wish people would learn to use sumos properly, and although I agree with you to an extent deadnight, I still don't think "go air" should be a viable counter-argument to one unit being OP.

The problem lies with how hard it is to counter the raven with units without having to go Air and if you're not Arm Kbots. (If you are Arm kbots it's simple, you make sniper+warrior as in 95% of cases where you don't need AA or maverick)

[Johannes]

I agree with Deadnight that people whine about balance way too much, instead of trying how to beat it. Sure some things might be stronger than others but then use that knowledge to your advantage. Especially with XTA which is played so little, you're very far from the optimal ways to play the game.

[pintle]

Especially with XTA which is played so little, you're very far from the optimal ways to play the game.

Speak for yourself.

I whine about stuff that didn't used to be broken, and was broken by cowboy developement. There is a huge difference between this and not knowing how to play the game.

Any balance thread on any rts forum will be full of newbs posting ill informed crap, but XTA has a much longer history of "play testing" than any spring mod, beyond S44, which has changed so fundamentally that games circa 2005 have no real relevance to current balance.

It is easy to complain about various aspects of balance, but some things really could do with adressing: I have suggested several times, over a period of years, that scouts get reduced hp/cost/dps, and become proper scout/raider units more in line with BA/SA etc. The number one complaint of good 1v1 players coming to play XTA with me has been silly powerful scout cars.

Basic are you serious about com making MT? Have you any idea how lolop compush would become?

I'm not sure I agree about raider units being more "effective" than other t1 counterparts. I think it is highly dependant upon context. Try killing a com with X number of pw/flash/ak/gator, you can do it for half the cost (if that) of rocko/hammer/stumpy/dirty core equivalents. Everybody seems to build a LOT more aa than they do raider units as well...

Comparing XTA (or any RTS in which you arrive at a battlefield and immediatetly begin harvesting resources and acquiring technology) to a real life war situation is, in my opinion, niether relevant nor useful when considering balance. I would hope that developement aims for a fun and challenging game experience, not an accurate war simulator.

Finally, regarding Noruas as lead dev, adressing Ray's points: Undocumented changes, adding new untested units (an unprecedented thing done without community consensus or even consultation), breaking commander interaction, and then not adressing it for X months, adding needless inefficient particle FX that mean people who played XTA for literally years are suddenly unable to due to frame rate issues, despite nobody asking for the effects.... I could go on but I don't want to be too inflammatory and I do respect the time and work Noruas put into XTA; I just don't think the argument that we need his blessing in order to unfuck XTA has a leg to stand on: any community driven, open, preferably SVN dev of XTA would be a significant improvement over the past 24 odd months of dev.

Sorry if this post offends people, but I'm too tired to type politely

[babbles]

"scouts are op ffs slow them down or give them less hp"

"shut up babbles"

[Gota]

Basic are you serious about com making MT? Have you any idea how lolop compush would become?

well if mt dmg gets nerfed i dont think it will be an issue.
Secondly, I offered 2 solutions i guess the first one is more to your liking..

[raaar]

This topic is called "Mutator Discussion", so make a mutator with your vision of XTA, let's play it and let's see how that will work out. At least test it in a simulated 3v3 with AIs.

My latest mutator (available at http://www.mediafire.com/?g3584ixv9we5erl and http://filebin.graasmilk.net/XTAPEV9642b.sd7) has lots of changes to building footprints and AA missiles are completly diferent from one used now (they might seem somewhat OP).
To be exact:
[*]Removed dancing for all guided missiles, they now shoot in a slight parabolic (arc) trajectory towards target
[*]Custom collision volumes for all factories (no longer a sphere)
(...)

I also thought about doing those two :)

The current missile dance system makes it broken against ground units, especially on maps with rugged terrain (half of the missiles bump into the ground before they reach their ground target).

The buff can be compensated by range buffs to other tier1 units and improvements on unit and turret turn rates (for thuds hammers and such).

LLT should be made more cost-effective against scouts (cheaper, more dps, maybe a bit less range).

[FaerieWithBoots]

i agree on the scout issue, little cheaper, build a little fastser, lles HP etc, just bit less of everything but los. Same goes for Zipper btw. It should have a bit less HP so you can kill one if you prepare for it, because as of now only, a missmicro and a good dgunshot can kill them. (the even kill MTs ffs)

Also agree on the mine issue, they are way to cheap for the damage they do. Also, they encourage passive gameplay, wich is a bad thing imo.
The cost of an average T1 unit in mines... you can make about 17 mines for the cost of a stumpy oO. So build 10 of them, make sure it kills one unit and there is your return of investment :)
The sullution could be to reduce damage with at least 50-75%. Or increase cost to 30-50% of a T1 unit.

Commanders making MTs sounds like a bad idea imo. Because of said reasons (commander push with mt)

Some freaky idea:
Reduce los of commander / radar. To encourage a more diverse use of units in skirmishes. Use peewee/Ak/zipper etc to provide los.

question:
what do you think of hammer/thuds? Are they too similar to storm/rocko but too expansive? Or do they have their use ?
What do you think of increasing range even more (maybe with decrease in damage)

[raaar]

removing LOS advantage commanders have over other units seems like a good idea.

I'd put los ranges at:

600 - air units and spy kbots

500 - Commanders, fixed defenses, kbots and most vehicles

400 - short tier1 vehicles, except scouts (stumpy, flash and their core counterparts), or some other less perceptive units (optional)

300 - non-combat structures

[babbles]

lol scouts were given los boost to encourage that, but everyone yelled at me when I said scouts needed nerfing in some departments

[Tim-the-maniac]

Removed dancing for all guided missiles, they now shoot in a slight parabolic (arc) trajectory towards target

<3

I really hope scouts dont get a nerf. They are barely useful as it is. After the first few minutes of the game you are likely to have a sparse scattering of aa reducing the impact of a scout attack to a single mex death which is actually an advantage to the enemy due to the donated metal. Its only ever really useful to build 1-3 at game start anyway just to wasted micro time which is better spent on other things (repairing aa lines with com etc :p)

Most of the competant players of xta played a 4v4 on comet today and scouts made had little to no impact on the game.

[Jools]

Also agree on the mine issue, they are way to cheap for the damage they do. Also, they encourage passive gameplay, wich is a bad thing imo.
The cost of an average T1 unit in mines... you can make about 17 mines for the cost of a stumpy oO.

Everybody knows I like mines, so it's hard to say this in an objective way, but I don't think mines are op, and I don't think they should be compared to the cost of attacking units (mines are basically explosives dug under ground, so then should be compared to the shells units fire, and they cost nothing).

Also, when referring to that mutual base destruction scenario, this happens because xta (and spring and ota) is a special type of game where it pays off more to attack than defend. It's usually a better option to invest metal in mobile units than static defences, so that makes for an offensiove gameplay. Furthermore you gain territory and can reclaim metal if you win the battle. Mines are about the only weapon you have to prevent a stronger enemy from pillaging your base, once you've lost the commander. They also excel in prevanting comwalks into your base. Sure, they can be cleared, but they buy you time when you're weak.

Lastly, mines are the only component of xta that resembles guerilla warfare. (Ok, the roach and invader too do that.)

Commanders making MTs sounds like a bad idea imo. Because of said reasons (commander push with mt)

Some freaky idea:
Reduce los of commander / radar. To encourage a more diverse use of units in skirmishes. Use peewee/Ak/zipper etc to provide los.

question:
what do you think of hammer/thuds? Are they too similar to storm/rocko but too expansive? Or do they have their use ?
What do you think of increasing range even more (maybe with decrease in damage)

With these thoughts I agree: Commanders with AA is simply a bad idea, it would change too much the commander balance. LOS could be reduced, commander is used a lot for LOS instead of other units such as spy, peeper etc. But this would also change xta a lot. However, commander's sonar could also be reduced without impacting much, but that's another story.

Zipper was originally a T2 unit, now it has been demoted to T1, and now we wanna make it even weaker. Sounds almost like a hate speech. Who steps up for the defence of the zipper population? :)

[babbles]

Jools: "It was made from a T2 to a T1 unit" doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. You could say the opposite, it was a T2 and now it's a T1 and T2 meaning it should be either buffed and T2 only, or nerfed and T1 only.

And ray, to be fair, that was because I made 5 fighters to specifically kill scouts.

Oh and to floris: I think hammers/thuds use will become even less with missiles no longer being blocked by DT as why make heavier close range units that need repairing to take down a llt, when you can use you standard AA spam?

[Johannes]

Also 4v4 on ccr, it's just 1 direction pushing... The scouts have a hard time finding a place to slip through, you never really have to divert your army to stop them.

They are not as useful in the gametypes many xta players like, but if you want to play on a more open map that changes totally.

[Deadnight Warrior]

Finally some brainstorming instead of whining. Maybe my ideas about balancing aren't what you guys would want to see, but at least you started providing alternatives.

Regarding further XTA deving, I'll concentrate on fixing building footprints (though this might cause balancing issues, best example is nano tower), custom collision volumes and script optimization. Once you agree on a balance change, let me know.

[Gota]

WE agree on Mines being too cheap or too powerful,take your pick, and scouts need more los but less hp.

[Tim-the-maniac]

Someone show me some replays of scout battles? Or of a decent player losing because of them?

Of course 4v4 comet isnt the best situation where scouts could be abused buts its pretty much as open as xta games get.

Mines could get nerfed to hell for all I care tho. Boring, action reducing fuckers.

I also think radars should be given a los boost. Currently if you are trying to fight a com + missile unit line without using your own com its hopeless even if you have a greater force and/or better technique. To have any chance you need to be able to spot the enemy com which will require you to build an expensive llt (which wont last long) or to constantly suicide units into the line.
Havent a cheap source of los you will be able to maintain constant fire on the com with your own aa and push him back if you have a greater number of flashers/gators or whatever.
This will help prevent the coms march of death which is the main cause of mutual base destruction.

[pintle]

Someone show me some replays of scout battles? Or of a decent player losing because of them?

Of course 4v4 comet isnt the best situation where scouts could be abused buts its pretty much as open as xta games get.

Mines could get nerfed to hell for all I care tho. Boring, action reducing fuckers.

I also think radars should be given a los boost. Currently if you are trying to fight a com + missile unit line without using your own com its hopeless even if you have a greater force and/or better technique. To have any chance you need to be able to spot the enemy com which will require you to build an expensive llt (which wont last long) or to constantly suicide units into the line.
Havent a cheap source of los you will be able to maintain constant fire on the com with your own aa and push him back if you have a greater number of flashers/gators or whatever.
This will help prevent the coms march of death which is the main cause of mutual base destruction.

Not that I'm against radar having los, but use a zipper...

[Gota]

Radar having los?
Isnt it a bit silly to be building radars every time you need line of sight?not to mention that radars have low hp should that than be buffed?
Radars are radars.
For los there are scouts.
What you could do is just reduce the commander's los as well.
That way missile units wont be so easy to use and would be more of a support unit than a front line supression weapon(with new change of missiles flying with an arch it fits perfect).
At the same time closer range units would become more useful at pushing lines of defense back.

@Ray try playing TCP 1v1.
CCR 1v1?red comet 1v1?basically any map aside from the usual hilly/porcy/chockey maps played by xta players.
of course those are played because aside from the commander there are almost no useful defenses so on open maps its just constant mutual destruction with almost no real ability to actually defend some area.