Arm t2 kbot lab

[pintle]

The term rush implies build them as fast as you can, its a t2 unit, some investment is necessary. To someone who frequently rushes pene I don't see why you find that hard to grasp. TRY IT then get back to me?

How many pyros do core get for sniper jammer 3 warriors then?

If you showed me any games/replays of super op arm bot lab, I might be inclined to agree. As it stands, however, the main thing creating problems for heavier units is LOLTARDED commander, and to change balance revolving around these units, and the game phase at which they emerge, without touching commander balance would be beyond stupid imo.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I recall a memorable 1v1 vs barto on that 8x8 planet VII map where he rushed ravens, eventually massing 5- on that small map, this was insanely powerful. however, I countered using a spam of single AKs and crawling bombs, stalling him for almost 10 minutes then rolling over him with a small t2 economy ala cans and gunships. early arm t2 kbot lab is somthing of an all in unless you follow it with a t2 veh lab for economy, and if it fails you are b b b boned the moment enemy moho mines start going down.

[babbles]

The thing is, yeah the Arm kbot lab has crap economy, but it only needs 2-3 units to start owning and can use the left over resources to make a medium fusion straight away. Heck you could get a sniper up with 3 warriors easily, and a jammer maybe even a mav, reclaim the lab, make a medium fusion get some mohos and hey presto you have the same eco as a core player and a much stronger army

[pintle]

With WAY more of a bt investment, and much much slower returns than drop lab: spam pyros.

[babbles]

make an invader and use the warriors

nice pyros

[pintle]

Are we now just ego jousting with hypothetics or wut?

Split the pyros? Make 1 domi and prevent com using his nanolathe till its killed? Compare cost and bt of pyro to warrior?

You talk about rushing 3 warrior jammer sniper mav and then lab reclaim... in that time core player could have at least 1 minifusion up, way more bp than you, and isnt cycling it in a lab claim. Pure pyro spam vs your bo, or a couple of well timed bombers killing your reclaim could cripple this.

You say yourself that you don't play much proper 1v1, and imo you are way too used to a refined play style, where you are able to tie up inferior players with your com, and run a very tight eco towards specific goals (for e.g. you are my prime "is he rushing nuke?" suspect in team games, every time), but I don't think this is fairly indicative of all, or indeed most, competitive games. I'm not trying to imply you lack experience and knowledge, more that you are too used to winning easily in team games that you do these builds under very little pressure.

Arm bot lab is substantially more micro dependant than its counterparts, especially core botlab. You can happily leave a core phalanx (3:1 morty:can, some domies, crashers, jammer, radar) safe from any field threat (bar loldgun, vehicle artillery/a jammed raven) whilst you switch focus to manage some economy or whatever, in a way a corresponding arm player simply cant. They cant even stand up in the field to that army, if you assume an even economic standing, morties kill the mavs, nothing else can stand in can range and win. (except for dgun fodder zeus, which you could argue are used to draw out com for 3 snipers, but I would just kite and kill with morties..). Suffice to say, presuming critical mass is reached (pre sumo stage, but that just exacerbates the same dynamic), core bot lab makes a better stand up army, definitely a better lane-push, and a stronger economy.

So warrior may be OP, maybe it should be made more expensive, or given more build time?. Snipers I am pretty damm dubious about, raven is not, imo, OP.

Im going to return to the suggestion that dgun range, and morph in general have a far greater affect on the interplay between the land labs than individual unit balance. Fix that before a global fifteen percent(!) speed/range buff to vehicles...

[raaar]

heh, raaar, to be fair your way of making warrior etc less op was to make the stuff in the same lab better

Not completely. The raven should have been nerfed. But yeah, i argued that there were balance problems within each faction more than arm vs core. I mean, some units being too much worth/cost compared to others of the same faction except in very specific scenarios. Both factions have this problem imo, and one way to fix it is to buff underpowered units rather than nerf the overpowered ones.

The inter-faction balance problem that comes to my mind comes from arm lev1 peewees/flashes having 60 dps vs 45 dps of the core counterparts, and being slightly faster. The range difference isn't enough to cover for this.