Opinions about the naming of an Islamic center

[bobthedinosaur]

It's like asking why Nicholas II of Russia should have given the Bolsheviks preferential treatment instead of treating them like all other fringe groups...
Well he didnt, and he got his and his family's heads cut off and plunged russia, that was about the become a constitutional moarchy, into 70 yeard of ruthless dictatorship.
You give preferential treatment when the subject posses a bigger threat.

Well that is one political strategy. But that isn't the only way to do things.

[Gota]

It's like asking why Nicholas II of Russia should have given the Bolsheviks preferential treatment instead of treating them like all other fringe groups...
Well he didnt, and he got his and his family's heads cut off and plunged russia, that was about the become a constitutional moarchy, into 70 yeard of ruthless dictatorship.
You give preferential treatment when the subject posses a bigger threat.

Well that is one political strategy. But that isn't the only way to do things.

not sure i follow what you mean.
It's not necessarily a political strategy It's a life strategy of sorts.
you address the most urgent things first.
If a piano is falling on your head would you first try to understand the meaning of life or would you first move out of the way of the piano?

[bobthedinosaur]

That depends if you're a fatalist or not.

[echoone]

What do you guys think about the Islamic center about to be built near ground zero?

I read that many Americans oppose this action(of course the land is private and the owners can do whatever they want with it even if its against the will of many).

Its all a strawman's argument for the ignorant masses to join in hate. Some twelve (sixteen?, not far at any rate) or so blocks away, there is already an Islamic center which pre-dates the twin towers by a wide margin.

Unless they can show the new center has some association with zealots and extremists, those arguing against it are either bigots or ignorant. And as far as I know, no such associations are known to exist.

And to be clear, I am an American. Demographically, I'm just not the average American. I suspect the rumblings you've been hearing has more to do with the fact its been a slow news week and anything to do with 9/11 is considered, "ratings worthy."

[Gota]

So you are saying that making an islamic cultural center as close as possible to ground zero than naming it as the spanish christian city that was conquered by islam and was a showcase of Islamic superiority was just a coincidence?
Sure not all muslims are terrorists but is it not obvious how insensitive and in your face it is?
and the fact they want to finish it in 9/11 is not a slap in the face?
What else would this show to the extremists if not that the US IS decadent, guilt ridden and weak like they claim?
What would those extremists think when that building is finished much like the Islamic mosques were raised on the ruins of the buildings of ancient countries and people?

This symbolism seems petty and insignificant to a secular modern person but means everything to religious people seeing everything through a prism of religious history and ancient prophets and ancestors.

how i this mindset still not clear after everything that has happened?

[bobthedinosaur]

how i this mindset still not clear after everything that has happened?

If you feel that strongly I highly recommend enlisting in the infantry to go help what has "happened".

[Gota]

how i this mindset still not clear after everything that has happened?

If you feel that strongly I highly recommend enlisting in the infantry to go help what has "happened".

what i meant is that these religious nutcases,who want this center there, know what they are doing and they view acts in a much broader and deeper sense than modern secular people.
You feel this is unimportant and petty,your a secular person minding his modern personal life issues but to them it is a continues struggle to islamify the world.
Yes,muslims,and its not the only religion, believe that Islam needs to be spread around the world.
This is a symbolic act but it is the essence of Islam and all pervasive religions.
The pushing of ones opinions and ideas against the will of others through whatever crook and cranny possible sometimes in a vulgar fashion like in this instance.

In fact Secular US citizens,by now need to also worry about christian evangelism and the religious christian people in US population but at least no christian has killed 3 thousand Americans and declared it an act of faith,yet...
not to say that there isnt already a strong impact on US life by these religious groups since even getting elected to public office usually means the candidate must be a religious person or at least he must lie about being one...

[REVENGE]

I doubt that the planners of the mosque have negative intentions, but I think the timing is wrong. They should just put it on hold for now if the opposition keeps gaining momentum.

By the way, I'd prefer less Mosques / Churches / religions in the world in general.

[Gota]

OK, Europeans, watch this conversation.
Some of the what this guy says is interesting a few things, IMO, brilliant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K375rwCg ... re=related

You ca skip the first few minutes where he is asked about his upbringing and education and skip to when his book is introduced at the 21st minute.
He talks about how Europe is dealing with Islam and Islamic immigration and about the future of the trend in European behavior and society.

This one :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7JqbFcQ ... re=channel
Is for Americans.

[Noruas]

I doubt that the planners of the mosque have negative intentions, but I think the timing is wrong.

... yeah... doubt, go insure yourself.
Politically speaking, the federal government has the right to move religious centers, and they do it all the time in America. Obama just wants his religion to spreed victoriously. I loved his speech on Ramadan, very educational I must say, he didn't even use a teleprompter for that speech!

[Forboding Angel]

hehehe

Well another curiosity of the placement is that that is a very commercial area, far from residential. So why would you try to put a mosque there other than as an insult?

Regardless I doubt that the initial intentions are bad, but whether the mosque is the greatest thing on earth or not, to any terrorist, it will be seen as a monument to victory.

Ya know just to spite terrorists, we should erect a omgwtfginormous cross at ground zero. That'd piss em off good and proper

[echoone]

hehehe

So why would you try to put a mosque there other than as an insult?

I dunno...maybe because its part of their religion. Maybe because that area is extremely diverse, pre-dating the twin towers. Maybe because that area has a large Muslim and Hindi presence. Maybe because they already have an informal mosque there which has long out grown its capacity and creation of a formal center makes sense. Maybe because, out of sensitivity for 9/11 they stalled the creation of this center for years? So on and so on...

I dunno...the reasonable reasons are so numerous, I'm not sure which ones, logically rather than emotionally, make more sense than the other.

We're talking about multiple BLOCKS away. Its not like its next door. Its proximity has been grossly over stated. People who are insulted by this are people who are looking for an excuse to be insulted. And for those who don't know, four blocks is roughly a mile (1.6km). At what distance does irrational, emotional, hatred stop being justified disdain and become bigotry? Is it bigotry at one mile? Two miles? Ten miles?

[Noruas]

Ya know just to spite terrorists, we should erect a omgwtfginormous cross at ground zero. That'd piss em off good and proper

No, that is not good enough, you buy the areas around the mosque and sell pork, put the ventilation next to the mosque of possible.

[Gota]

hehehe

So why would you try to put a mosque there other than as an insult?

I dunno...maybe because its part of their religion. Maybe because that area is extremely diverse, pre-dating the twin towers. Maybe because that area has a large Muslim and Hindi presence. Maybe because they already have an informal mosque there which has long out grown its capacity and creation of a formal center makes sense. Maybe because, out of sensitivity for 9/11 they stalled the creation of this center for years? So on and so on...

I dunno...the reasonable reasons are so numerous, I'm not sure which ones, logically rather than emotionally, make more sense than the other.

We're talking about multiple BLOCKS away. Its not like its next door. Its proximity has been grossly over stated. People who are insulted by this are people who are looking for an excuse to be insulted. And for those who don't know, four blocks is roughly a mile (1.6km). At what distance does irrational, emotional, hatred stop being justified disdain and become bigotry? Is it bigotry at one mile? Two miles? Ten miles?

First of all stop accusing people of being racist.are you interested in a normal discussion or a flame war?
Is it not possible this was just a bad inappropriate move by the people who wanted to build it?I'm not saying it is now im saying isn't it possible they made a judgment mistake?or are they not human?

Why do you accuse those that don't agree with this of being racist?that is preposterous and some will be offended by that.

now tell me how far is this from ground zero :


Unless this image is wrong and i doubt it this seems fairly close to me...
You better recheck your facts especially before making an ad hominem fallacy in your argumentation.

[echoone]

We're talking about multiple BLOCKS away. Its not like its next door. Its proximity has been grossly over stated. People who are insulted by this are people who are looking for an excuse to be insulted. And for those who don't know, four blocks is roughly a mile (1.6km). At what distance does irrational, emotional, hatred stop being justified disdain and become bigotry? Is it bigotry at one mile? Two miles? Ten miles?

First of all stop accusing people of being racist.are you interested in a normal discussion or a flame war?

Then stop advocating discrimination. And by the way, I'm not accusing anyone of racism. I'm accusing people of ignorance and/or bigotry, on the basis of religious discrimination.

Couldn't help but notice you completely ignored legitimate questions in an effort to assert I'm flame-baiting.

Is it not possible this was just a bad inappropriate move by the people who wanted to build it?I'm not saying it is now im saying isn't it possible they made a judgment mistake?or are they not human?

Of course its possible. But who cares. Period. Their right is constitutionally protected. Period. Advocating a group can't or shouldn't do something because of "justified" bigotry is wrong. The US Constitution is very clear on this fact. No amount of ignorant hand waving and/or bigotry is going to change that fact.

Why do you accuse those that don't agree with this of being racist?that is preposterous and some will be offended by that.

Preposterous? Please point out humans who are incapable of being human and then I'll agree its preposterous. Until such time, you're doing nothing more than emotional hand waving while dodging legitimate questions, which are in no way flame-bait.

Seriously. At what distance does discrimination, based on religion, not become bigotry and discrimination? Its a fair questions because its at the very heart of the anti-Cultural Center movement.

When is it okay to discriminate? When we're at war? The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution are specifically in place because our forefathers understood humans are irrational, emotional, and fallible. Claiming otherwise doesn't lend additional credence to your argument.

And for the record, it absolutely is not a mosque. If you want to call it as such, fine, so long as we all understand its not. I'm sure it will be used for religious purposes as religion is so ingrained in their culture...but not a mosque does it make. Calling it a mosque is technically inaccurate and only serves to further flame ignorance and emotion. So by all means, continue to call it a mosque.

[fc14159]

Americans (and obviously bigots from other countries as well) just cannot dissociate the 9/11 attacks from Muslims in general. You have to remember that this is a mosque they're building. And if the previous projected name sounded invasive, so what? What the hell is being invaded? There are already over 1,000 mosques in the U.S. and they are all made for Muslim Americans. What is making this one extra one going to do? It might have been made near ground zero for a reason-to gain more social acceptance in the area for Muslims. These Muslims are in no way, shape, or form related to the terrorists that attacked the U.S. Too many people just view the Muslim community as a whole, that is they think that every Muslim in the world thinks and does the same thing, that they are just a hivemind and Muslim Americans are spawns of the "central terrorist Islamic community in the Middle East." With the same stupid thinking, I could say that since there have been cases of children being molested by Catholic priests, all Christians rape little boys. And I think I don't even have to talk about Jews.

I just really think that people have to stop being so ignorant and discriminatory. If this continues on, anything Islam-related will be criticized and existing Islam-related things will be attacked. In the end, Muslims will be the only second-class citizen group in the U.S., just like the Christians and Jews in Cordoba, according to Gota.

[Gota]

We're talking about multiple BLOCKS away. Its not like its next door. Its proximity has been grossly over stated. People who are insulted by this are people who are looking for an excuse to be insulted. And for those who don't know, four blocks is roughly a mile (1.6km). At what distance does irrational, emotional, hatred stop being justified disdain and become bigotry? Is it bigotry at one mile? Two miles? Ten miles?

First of all stop accusing people of being racist.are you interested in a normal discussion or a flame war?

Then stop advocating discrimination. And by the way, I'm not accusing anyone of racism. I'm accusing people of ignorance and/or bigotry, on the basis of religious discrimination.

Couldn't help but notice you completely ignored legitimate questions in an effort to assert I'm flame-baiting.

Is it not possible this was just a bad inappropriate move by the people who wanted to build it?I'm not saying it is now im saying isn't it possible they made a judgment mistake?or are they not human?

Of course its possible. But who cares. Period. Their right is constitutionally protected. Period. Advocating a group can't or shouldn't do something because of "justified" bigotry is wrong. The US Constitution is very clear on this fact. No amount of ignorant hand waving and/or bigotry is going to change that fact.

Why do you accuse those that don't agree with this of being racist?that is preposterous and some will be offended by that.

Preposterous? Please point out humans who are incapable of being human and then I'll agree its preposterous. Until such time, you're doing nothing more than emotional hand waving while dodging legitimate questions, which are in no way flame-bait.

Seriously. At what distance does discrimination, based on religion, not become bigotry and discrimination? Its a fair questions because its at the very heart of the anti-Cultural Center movement.

When is it okay to discriminate? When we're at war? The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution are specifically in place because our forefathers understood humans are irrational, emotional, and fallible. Claiming otherwise doesn't lend additional credence to your argument.

And for the record, it absolutely is not a mosque. If you want to call it as such, fine, so long as we all understand its not. I'm sure it will be used for religious purposes as religion is so ingrained in their culture...but not a mosque does it make. Calling it a mosque is technically inaccurate and only serves to further flame ignorance and emotion. So by all means, continue to call it a mosque.

You are claiming i cry for discrimination...where?Did i ever write that i think that center should be a specila case and they should not allow it to be built?
No, I never did that,I recongnise their right to freedom of religion.
Where did i write that i think Special measures need to be taken and that The muslim population should be treated unequally?come on...quote me..
you just perceive any criticism or a specific group as racism and i assume you only accept critisicm of individuals?
I think that that is not right.
People from certain areas or coutries or groups can have distinguishable common traits or mentality.
Addressing that and saying that, no, i dont think that a specific mentality or way of thinking or acting of a group is appropriate or should be accepted or even can be accepted in a democratic society is not being racist.
some things can be attributed to groups of people and than criticised if they are correctly attributed.

[Gota]

Americans (and obviously bigots from other countries as well) just cannot dissociate the 9/11 attacks from Muslims in general. You have to remember that this is a mosque they're building. And if the previous projected name sounded invasive, so what? What the hell is being invaded? There are already over 1,000 mosques in the U.S. and they are all made for Muslim Americans. What is making this one extra one going to do? It might have been made near ground zero for a reason-to gain more social acceptance in the area for Muslims. These Muslims are in no way, shape, or form related to the terrorists that attacked the U.S. Too many people just view the Muslim community as a whole, that is they think that every Muslim in the world thinks and does the same thing, that they are just a hivemind and Muslim Americans are spawns of the "central terrorist Islamic community in the Middle East." With the same stupid thinking, I could say that since there have been cases of children being molested by Catholic priests, all Christians rape little boys. And I think I don't even have to talk about Jews.

I just really think that people have to stop being so ignorant and discriminatory. If this continues on, anything Islam-related will be criticized and existing Islam-related things will be attacked. In the end, Muslims will be the only second-class citizen group in the U.S., just like the Christians and Jews in Cordoba, according to Gota.

Ok let me ask you something.
do you think it would have been appropriate if the center was called by the name of one of the terrorists who bombed the WTC??
It is the founders right to call that center in whatever way he wants but would that be nice towards the family's of the victims?
of course it owuldnt be and it would obviously spark critisicm.

now is it legal to call an islamic center cordoba?sure it is.I never said that right should be taken away from them.But is it not allowed to criticize that decision?
Where in this entire thread did I claim that the construction should be forcible stopped or muslim rights in the us trampled upon?

But there is a place for critisicm!
What you are doing is actually marginalizing a huge group of people and say that if some feel this center is stepping on toes and is disrespectful(and yes it is very clear how this connection between islam and the terror acts perpetrated in the name of Islam and the new muslim center can raise eyebrows) than they are immidietly al lracists that see muslims as one block when its obvious that only the very extreme and ignorant people do so.
It is like saying that all conservatives in America are fascists and all liberals in America are extreme left anarchists.

If the builders are completely naive about this, and did mean peaceful coexistence, even though, cordoba can easily be viewed as a symbol of muslim superiority, some can still see how this center will symbolize victory for those muslims who are extreme...
It is by no means some crazy connection that is hard to catch.
There IS definately room for criticism and claiming those that do criticize and feel offended are racist is wrong.

[Panda]

Of course its possible. But who cares. Period. Their right is constitutionally protected. Period. Advocating a group can't or shouldn't do something because of "justified" bigotry is wrong. The US Constitution is very clear on this fact. No amount of ignorant hand waving and/or bigotry is going to change that fact.

*Cheers* YEAH!

[Gota]

chain of events.
Basic claims making the center at that place might be looked at as insensitive.
* says you are biggoted and racist.
basic explains again that he is talking about the fact that if this action meets criticism it is easily justifiable.
*says you are biggoted and racist luckily the US has laws against you.
wau...