Best units in any mod? Use simple math!

[TradeMark]

Yeah...

But why i need square root? i dont get it...

[Gota]

The best way to balance with the assistant of math is by giving each stat a value and play testing with the units that are created using those values.
This is the best way of calibrating a mod and takes into considerations all of the unit behaviors that Zerg talks about and many more.

[Evil4Zerggin]

You calculation is way too simplified...add speed,area damage,range energy cost and build time.
Than you will get much better results,trust me.

Okay...

sqrt(DPS * health) / cost + speed + area + damage + range + energy + build time

Something tells me this isn't it. Why don't you post your formula so we can all look at it?

Yeah...

But why i need square root? i dont get it...

Health / cost * DPS / cost is how quickly the unit does damage per cost times how long it is able to deal it per cost. This makes sense since if a unit cost half as much, you could afford twice as many--double firepower with double durability. Taking the square root gives you sqrt(health * DPS) / cost, which is nice because you keep the same ordering, but you have cost in the denominator instead of cost^2, so you have some measure of what you're getting per cost. In this case, if the calculated efficiency of one unit is twice as high as a second, then a force composed of the first unit is equal to a force composed of the second of double cost. (Subject to the assumptions of the model, of course.)

Or, as Wikipedia says:

it takes an N-squared-fold increase in quality to make up for an N-fold increase in quantity.

[Dragon45]

How difficult would it to build a data miner that goes through tons of replays and from each one, extracts player rank, whether that player won or not, and how many of which unit they built?

[imbaczek]

Ideally you need headless spring for that, which ain't there yet. Otherwise quite easy, I guess.

[Gota]

Dragon all that it will give you is the units that are "thought" to be the best now...but not unit who are trully the best..

[Noruas]

How do you upload to that site?

[Dragon45]

Dragon all that it will give you is the units that are "thought" to be the best now...but not unit who are trully the best..

Shut the hell up. That's not what I was asking.



So headless (i'm assuming this is the graphics-free thing) spring would be ideal, you say? What's the timeline on that? Is there any way perhaps to mine the data from replays directly without having to rerun thousands of games?We only care about existence and property here; we don't care about simulating everything that happens in between.

[imbaczek]

the only thing that is ever transmitted over the network that relates to controlling units ingame is orders. maybe you could extract build orders (-unitDefID in Commdand.id), but that's about it - not a thing about when the units die and such. (there's a replay analyzer that may be useful: http://github.com/spring/spring/tree/ma ... moAnalyser, also see DemoDumper.)

as for headless due date - somewhere between future and never; I think zerver was working on that, because that's essentially what's needed for multithreaded sim.

[hunterw]

How difficult would it to build a data miner that goes through tons of replays and from each one, extracts player rank, whether that player won or not, and how many of which unit they built?

i like this idea but you gotta have it for like 23532523 different versions of spring
and im sure it would be a shitload of work

[TradeMark]

Im sure you dont need many spring versions, since the net commands have mostly remained same, only the simulations changed...

How do you upload to that site?

to Modinfo? only i can

[1v0ry_k1ng]

did tired ever release his balance forumla?

[Otherside]

if you balance with RPS in mind

no one unit will truly be the best because it will have a counter.

There should be no best unit.

there should be good units in certain situations that perform better than others in the same situations

if there is a best unit the mod fails at balance and should try to fix it

[adin_panther]

if there is a best unit the mod fails at balance and should try to fix it

Totally in agreement.

[BaNa]

did tired ever release his balance forumla?

I recall an xls table floating along somewhere that had the magix.

[Tobi]

extracts player rank, whether that player won or not, and how many of which unit they built?

maybe you could extract build orders (-unitDefID in Commdand.id), but that's about it - not a thing about when the units die and such.

Perfect match, it would be possible to write something to extract this without the need to rerun entire simulation. LUA stuff might bork some thing like upgradable/morphable units though, not sure about that.

Probably needs lots of code from various places glued together: code from Spring to read unitdefs and map IDs to units, code from DemoAnalyser/DemoDumper to loop through demo, some TdfParser to extract player rank from the script in the demo (is it even in there?), and then some new code to compute a count per unit per player.

[TradeMark]

if you balance with RPS in mind

no one unit will truly be the best because it will have a counter.

There should be no best unit.

if there is a best unit the mod fails at balance and should try to fix it

you forgot to read: best unitS... changes everything...

[Otherside]

there shoudlnt be best units either

but thank you for admitting that most untis fill niche roles

[Noruas]

Trademark by any chance could you upload xta 9.55 to your site, I want to look at some things.

[TradeMark]

http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?MOD=xtapev955