Infogrames' latest strategy statement.

[Argh]

TA3D physically requires the OTA cds to get the illegal content, we could require the OTA CD's during installation...

That's one option. Ugh, I'd have to dig out OTA CDs, though

Personally, I think the best option is to take all of the games out of the installer, period, and make players fetch it themselves. I don't think it's fair to just exclude *As, tbh.

Then the only illegal stuff going on is on the file-host end... and they can comply with a C&D pretty much instantly, which would probably end the story right there.

[aegis]

Personally, I think the best option is to take all of the games out of the installer, period, and make players fetch it themselves. I don't think it's fair to just exclude *As, tbh.

it's perfectly fair if our justification is credible lawsuit prevention

[Argh]

<shrugs> It'd be "fair", but it would also create a situation of exclusion.

I don't really think that's any more "fair" than XTA being the only thing you got with Spring for the first half of me being here, despite lots of other cool things being available. But hey, that's just me. I'd prefer to not give anybody an advantage.

[aegis]

we shouldn't purposely make things harder for new users in the spirit of antifavoritism while trying to prevent a lawsuit

[Argh]

I hear you on that.

Maybe have Spring open up the Lobby application of the user's choice, and automatically show them a "how to get started" page, that includes "how do I get games for this thing"? I mean, people get a lot of games through the Lobby now... why not just make it part of the process of teaching people about the engine?

Just a thought.

[lurker]

Also, Infogrames.

[Argh]

Lol, yes, sorry. Corrected.

[Sheekel]

I don't really think that's any more "fair" than XTA being the only thing you got with Spring for the first half of me being here

I believe XTA was the main mod distributed with Spring because the SY's were actively developing it.

Maybe have Spring open up the Lobby application of the user's choice, and automatically show them a "how to get started" page, that includes "how do I get games for this thing"? I mean, people get a lot of games through the Lobby now... why not just make it part of the process of teaching people about the engine?

I like this idea, have users download only the engine and the lobby, and in the lobby display a selection of available games with descriptions/media for the user to install.

[SwiftSpear]

TA3D physically requires the OTA cds to get the illegal content, we could require the OTA CD's during installation...

Im glad I got my copy on ebay for $6

If mods want to hack a way to do that then that's fine, the engine should move away from the TA content entirely IMO. As soon as anything is announced regarding TA actually being used for something, we'll remove any direct link we have to the TA content.

[Saktoth]

CA already has 60% of the 3do OTA textures replaced, so all we need to do is cut out the OTA models, the remaining OTA textures, and retex any third-party units to use only our origional textures.

The other problem would be the scripts, but thats just coding, taking the time to hack it together, and its artists CA lacks, not coders.

CA would probably benefit from this, as we'd be the only OTA-based mod still around (assuming BA cant just keep operating itself illgally or recruit a legion of devs to replace the content like CA has).

But Infogrames wont be suing a swedish website for damages, at most they'll get a C&D and have to stop distributing.

If mods want to hack a way to do that then that's fine, the engine should move away from the TA content entirely IMO. As soon as anything is announced regarding TA actually being used for something, we'll remove any direct link we have to the TA content.

That'd include not only otacontent.sdz, but all *A mods... if you're planing on pre-empting a C&D by taking it down as soon as OTA is being sold agin, i think its best you give the *A mods a heads up.

[smoth]

it would be nice if all those different teams worked together to replace all that content... image the progres... imagine getting ba ca etc all together as mutators to a core mod package... would be awesome....

[SwiftSpear]

CA already has 60% of the 3do OTA textures replaced, so all we need to do is cut out the OTA models, the remaining OTA textures, and retex any third-party units to use only our origional textures.

The other problem would be the scripts, but thats just coding, taking the time to hack it together, and its artists CA lacks, not coders.

CA would probably benefit from this, as we'd be the only OTA-based mod still around (assuming BA cant just keep operating itself illgally or recruit a legion of devs to replace the content like CA has).

But Infogrames wont be suing a swedish website for damages, at most they'll get a C&D and have to stop distributing.

If mods want to hack a way to do that then that's fine, the engine should move away from the TA content entirely IMO. As soon as anything is announced regarding TA actually being used for something, we'll remove any direct link we have to the TA content.

That'd include not only otacontent.sdz, but all *A mods... if you're planing on pre-empting a C&D by taking it down as soon as OTA is being sold agin, i think its best you give the *A mods a heads up.

Well, it's not like we're going to make it impossible for TA mods to run on spring... we could, but it's difficult and that's not our responsibility frankly. We'll stop distributing any TA material, and we'll ask it to be taken off the file hosts, but ultimately modders will likely still be able to try their luck with their own web space, and I don't see torrenting content over the lobby being restricted any time soon. If Atari starts going after people for it, don't expect us not to cooperate with them though.

[Argh]

Well, it's not like we're going to make it impossible for TA mods to run on spring... we could, but it's difficult and that's not our responsibility frankly. We'll stop distributing any TA material, and we'll ask it to be taken off the file hosts, but ultimately modders will likely still be able to try their luck with their own web space, and I don't see torrenting content over the lobby being restricted any time soon. If Atari starts going after people for it, don't expect us not to cooperate with them though.

Do we have to go that far? Don't get me wrong here, I think that we should be officially worried now... but there's a point past which we're probably being unreasonably paranoid.

I'd say that it should be reasonably safe to just remove otacontent.sdz, stop distibuting stuff in the Installer unless it's squeaky clean, and let jj et al decide what they want to distribute.

Then Spring's clean, and we don't have to worry about it any more. The work over the last 2 years has literally made it possible to get to that point by deleting a couple of files and dropping some stuff from the Installer.

The file-hosts are grownups- they can decide whether to keep hosting stuff that we've always known was illegal (and is very unlikely to get chased after) themselves- jj hosting *As doesn't change the legality of his bandwidth also being used for Spring- we can't be "guilty by association".

If we do that... and something is done with the issue of getting new players in touch with games in a transparent way... then nobody will get too bent out of shape, the *A guys can still find their games just fine... and Spring's protected legally.

As for intentions... companies don't generally put out strategic statements like that unless they have a deal going, or early dev started, Swift. I don't think that I can read that as a speculative "maybe"- they named some specific big names there.

I think it's fair to say that Phantagram's option finally expired, and Infogrames, which is sitting on a bunch of IP it picked up from moribund studios from the last big round of bloodbaths, will want to get that property making money for it promptly, either by acting as publisher or by optioning it again. It's basic capitalism, in the publishing world- if you can't afford to develop something, option the rights, if anybody will buy them.

At least it's probably no longer Phantagram's to develop. Their parent company works with Microsoft's games division

[SwiftSpear]

It could just mean they're planning to sell it on steam. We'll still remove OTA content we're responsible for distributing, but if that's the case we'll be much less inclined to bend over backwards.

[lurker]

Argh, you do realize it's not actually in the installer? It wouldn't be hard to remove all hosting of the file but keep it listed in the installer.

[jK]

Argh, you do realize it's not actually in the installer? It wouldn't be hard to remove all hosting of the file but keep it listed in the installer.

keeping it listed in the installer is already a problem

[Gota]

THEY,ARE,COMING....

[imbaczek]

DMCA is useless against spring since it's hosted in Europe. A total C&D we should ignore since even a child knows it's bogus; if anybody asks to stop including *A mods in the installer, we should consider it, perhaps consulting the decision with EFF, FFII, SFLC or whoever.

Getting rid of otacontent is long overdue anyway IMHO.

[smoth]

make those mods include it as part of their package.

[Argh]

DMCA is useless against spring since it's hosted in Europe.

Yeah, they'd use this, instead

Or they'd just initiate normal copyright-infringement proceedings.

Lastly... this isn't like a torrent, people, it's a direct line to a binary.

I dunno why I've had to say this three times, but these things are not legally equivalent.

One is like saying, "if you speak this magic word into a room, various people will be willing to hand you words from Shakespeare's plays, which, if you have the magic word, you can assemble into a play".

The other's like walking up to somebody and asking for the play, and they hand it to you- entire.

Get it? Not equivalent.

Not even Sweden thinks the second case is all right, and most of Europe agrees with the USA that the first case is just a distributed form of illegality.

Spring, the project, isn't safe distributing OTA stuff. Period. The file-hosts are another matter, because the incentive on the part of Infogrames to go after them is just about zero.

They'd just get bad press, but they wouldn't shut down Spring, and kids would just start torrenting the *As if they bothered anyhow. It's like using your pinky to reverse the Niagra.

Killing Spring would take one good lawyer about one man-day.

I talked to a friend of mine, who works at a law firm (same lady I talked to about copyright stuff), and she said it'd take an hour to send the C&D and takedown notice, 5 hours to prepare to go to court, an hour to get a preliminary injunction to shut down distribution until a trial, and an hour, 9 months to a year later, to drop the charges, because the project would be effectively dead by then. It'd be really, really, really easy.

So, if they're going to ever attack us... it'll be through the engine. It's easy and cheap. Removing the OTA content means it's neither easy nor cheap, because then we'd have evidence that we were acting in good faith, and they couldn't show that the offensive act was still occurring, etc.... and it would be done before they said, "boo", which is very important, if it ever happens.