Another Article- and not about the boring Economic Crisis

[Jasper1984]

Why promote vertical mobility? For someone to go up, someone must go down.

Because if more people compete, quality of the workforce goes up, as well as the general intelligence of society.(Maybe they'll vote for competent politicians.) Because average wealth can go up.(There is a limit, though, that is why population size must be controlled.) Because people who go down may be going down because they (wouldnt be)aren't good enough at their job.

A good side effect can be that people from a broad range of backgrounds would be in the education system, helping tie society together. Another is that people from a broad background can become politicians. Why be loyal to your society if you are separated from it, not able to reach different roles in it.

People like the idea of vertical mobility so they have something to hope for: getting a better life. But I personally think people should instead hope that the world will become a peacefull place, with for example people just not being born instead of being born and then dying of hunger.

How does allowing for vertical mobility prevent population measures negatively? Also, people who are studying usually are not breeding at the same time.

christ you guys are turning this place into TAU's T&D.

What are TAU's and T&D? Btw, i get how you can get pissed off about people who think they are special and deserve things because of it. I guess selfishness is a problem, but try not fret more about it then useful :).

[smoth]

christ you guys are turning this place into TAU's T&D.

What are TAU's and T&D? Btw, i get how you can get pissed off about people who think they are special and deserve things because of it. I guess selfishness is a problem, but try not fret more about it then useful :).

Sorry, I forget only a handful of us were TAU'ites.

TAU, is short for TA Universe. It is a ta related site with forums and file hosting. It is one of the oldest living TA related sites.

T&D was a sub-forum for general musing an discussion about peoples thoughts on this or that subject. Usually it degenerates to political raeging and religious raeging. I really hate political or religious discussions because few people can do it without turning into assholes.

I do not always agree about competition, I find sometimes people try to cut corners and that is why I always hate it. I do agree with the rest of your post. People need to have a motivation to succeed in their profession, if I was just stuck in a job I would not try very hard because I would know it doesn't matter what I do. I am glad that most people do not live in that reality.

Yeah, I shouldn't let the lazy bother me. I am not the most thick skinned of people and have the woe some disposition towards the more temperamental of behaviors.

[FLOZi]

Ya know, I know of a certain talk shot host who dropped out of college, got fired from "Big Media" and now makes over 40 million a year.

Inequality exists because there are a large amount of idiots in our society who think that everything should be given to them and they shouldn't have to work hard to attain their goals.

And flozi, sorry dude, you're full of it.

You're filth and I hope you die slowly.

[manored]

People like the idea of vertical mobility so they have something to hope for: getting a better life. But I personally think people should instead hope that the world will become a peacefull place, with for example people just not being born instead of being born and then dying of hunger.

World peace means no population culling. Don't say you want world hunger to be solved! If there was no wars, disease, food shortages we would exhaust the already strained planet to the point that we would go to war for resources anyway, we would cause our own extinction through overpopulation. Unchallenged growth would be the end of us.
christ you guys are turning this place into TAU's T&D. What PILLS ARE YOU ON MANNERED?

Oh yes, what stupid I am, lets continue killing each other! There are no differences between what we are doing now and what I proposed except that we would have a lot more of mental stability... bah, who needs mental stability? Population control is for greenpeacers.

I didnt meant to cut vertical mobility, I meant to merely not estimulate it like you were proposing... say "You can be a more important person, if you want and try hard" instead of "you must be a more important person, if you dont you are a loser" that is kind of what our society puts in the head of everone. Off course estimule wouldnt need to be that rude or depressing, but the first option sounds enough.

We dont need people to kill thenselves working, whats the point of maximizing production at the cost of our mental wellfare? Off course some people like to kill thenselves working, but if that makes then happy then they arent losing mental wellfare, nothing to worry about.

[tombom]

We dont need people to kill thenselves working, whats the point of maximizing production at the cost of our mental wellfare? Off course some people like to kill thenselves working, but if that makes then happy then they arent losing mental wellfare, nothing to worry about.

don't question the free market bro

[Panda]

Problem is that people can't just do stuff, like if I lived in the ancient times and needed money I could just go chop down some tree's, plant things in the ground or build a boat and trade, today everything is too f****** complicated.

We still have people over here who believe in things like the woman's place is in the -------, the man can go outdoors and work, or the woman is either to be married or stay with her parents and work for the church kind of like a nun.

A lot of people in Louisiana are kind of connected to the earth and have beliefs that are somewhat related to that. I hear that we still have some Voodoo practitioners in some parts Louisiana. Sometimes going to school is not the highest priority among people, but you may often times be pressured to go to church and other religious educational programs.

So there are places like that still, but I don't particularly like the idea of living that way. I'm not going to school because I don't believe in the idea of going to college. I would be throwing away a lot of money if I didn't believe in getting an education which is one reason why lazy people irritate me. It's one thing to simply have beliefs that say going to public schools and colleges is a bad idea, but quite another to just be lazy. I feel like lazy leaches of people drag me down while I'm trying to pursue my educational goals.

[manored]

We dont need people to kill thenselves working, whats the point of maximizing production at the cost of our mental wellfare? Off course some people like to kill thenselves working, but if that makes then happy then they arent losing mental wellfare, nothing to worry about.

don't question the free market bro

Can I have your mental wellfare? I could use an extra :)

Lazyness is a serious problem with wich I suffer, knowing that I must do something but having ever single piece of me telling me to not do it is terrible. Lazyness itself is not the problem because if you have a strong sense of duty you will force yourself to do it, the problem is what people aim to in their lifes.

[SwiftSpear]

Ya know, I know of a certain talk shot host who dropped out of college, got fired from "Big Media" and now makes over 40 million a year.

Inequality exists because there are a large amount of idiots in our society who think that everything should be given to them and they shouldn't have to work hard to attain their goals.

And flozi, sorry dude, you're full of it.

Inequality existing has nothing to do with idiots who believe they shouldn't have to work to get ahead, inequality exists because it's actively promoted by people who want to take advantage of said idiots.

I'd have much less against the unequal market if it wasn't made so ridiculously difficult to scratch your way off the bottom. It's a detriment to human society that corporations are empowered to actively suppress the labor force. We're playing a game right now that's easy to mathematically prove does not produce ideal results, but it's being done that way anyways because the alternative requires massive restructuring to society on a large scale.

[Sleksa]

FORUMVOMIT INCOMING

I'd have much less against the unequal market if it wasn't made so ridiculously difficult to scratch your way off the bottom. It's a detriment to human society that corporations are empowered to actively suppress the labor force. We're playing a game right now that's easy to mathematically prove does not produce ideal results, but it's being done that way anyways because the alternative requires massive restructuring to society on a large scale.

Currently, the highest paying jobs are either leaders. executives, etc, or doctors/lawyers.

However going through vocational school, people like plumbers (with 3 years of training) can already make over 3000 euros ( over 4500$?) a month, sometimes even more, and they are so needed that companies are trying to hire them before they finish the vocational school.

whereas a man who's come out of university studying history ( college for 3 years, university for 5+ years) has roughly 2 options, to become a researcher and pray that someone wants to pay for his research, or become a teacher ( starting with ~2000 euros/month), and there are so many people with teacher's degrees that its practically impossible unless you want to move in to teach in some desolate god-forsaken permafrozen area in lapland

Also, studying is free ,with the exception of books which you have to buy on your own ( has cost me ~1000 euro so far, over the course of 3 years) up to university level, which again, promotes equality, since the options you have in regards of study arent limited to what you can afford

Also incomes are considered a private matter, so executives have the ability to pay for people/raise their pay according to how well they perform in their job.

thus, the gap between lower class and upper class isnt that great, and people dont need to work and save for 30 years to be able to get their kids to college, and " climb up the ladder", and if they indeed are hardworking and qualified, they can earn better pays

this is what i meant with my quote in the first post

living in a caste system, this would be impossible.

We still have people over here who believe in things like the woman's place is in the -------, the man can go outdoors and work, or the woman is either to be married or stay with her parents and work for the church kind of like a nun.

Does 'over here' prevent you from moving 'somewhere else' ?
We too have religious nutjob towns where women are only considered good for making food and babies, but nothing is preventing them from moving out from said places and to study/ get a job

However income inequality still exsists between the sexes (since income is again, considered a private matter which in this case can make things worse) , and there was a large campaign a few years ago with the theme of "a man's euro is woman's 80 cents" , although my mother(private business) is propably payed better than my father( working for goverment)~~

Sometimes going to school is not the highest priority among people, but you may often times be pressured to go to church and other religious educational programs.

Thus, the views of your parents and the society around you, can affect your options in regards of study, like i said in my first post.

also;
Religion-based schools can offer a lot more than just studying for priest/other clergy based jobs. You can get a social worker's degree, become a psychologist etc etc, since the churches usually promote these kinds of things (social work), and they are quite well paid (better than teachers :P)

I'm not going to school because I don't believe in the idea of going to college. I would be throwing away a lot of money if I didn't believe in getting an education which is one reason why lazy people irritate me. It's one thing to simply have beliefs that say going to public schools and colleges is a bad idea, but quite another to just be lazy. I feel like lazy leaches of people drag me down while I'm trying to pursue my educational goals.

Could you clarify this a bit, i cant make much sense of it



\\\ all of these things i've said/referred to, are based on my knowledge on how shit works in finland&scandinavia (and the rest of the EU AFAIK)

And it would be interesting to hear how things differentuate in usa

[FLOZi]

Ya know, I know of a certain talk shot host who dropped out of college, got fired from "Big Media" and now makes over 40 million a year.

Inequality exists because there are a large amount of idiots in our society who think that everything should be given to them and they shouldn't have to work hard to attain their goals.

And flozi, sorry dude, you're full of it.

Inequality existing has nothing to do with idiots who believe they shouldn't have to work to get ahead, inequality exists because it's actively promoted by people who want to take advantage of said idiots.

I'd have much less against the unequal market if it wasn't made so ridiculously difficult to scratch your way off the bottom. It's a detriment to human society that corporations are empowered to actively suppress the labor force. We're playing a game right now that's easy to mathematically prove does not produce ideal results, but it's being done that way anyways because the alternative requires massive restructuring to society on a large scale.

I love you a little bit Swift.

[smoth]

swift if that is how it is in canada, I am never going there. it sounds miserable.

My best friend makes more than me with no education and my dad started his own business just fine. Maybe it is just my state but there is no problem going through the ranks. Eventually there is a ceiling for positions like CEOS but you can get pretty high up if you want. I know a guy who worked at ibm making 175k after graduation same degree as me, has a felony and is from your average middle class south Louisiana family. The difference between he and I was that he would put his nose to the grindstone.

There are plenty of ways to elevate one' self, maybe it is just Canada, I hope canada is not that bad but I do not know anyone that with sufficient effort was unable to get higher in society. Now I doubt most people will become billionaires, that is a ridiculous jump but then again that much wealth is fucking pointless

[PicassoCT]

I love you a little bit Swift.

Gay Banfan Harem is closed due of to many Swiftquotelovers

You know i sometimes envy you over there in the US. 80 Percent of peopl studying on German Universitys have Parents who are Academics... feels Fair, would love to see how that Number looks on your side of the Ocean..

[smoth]

The number of students and who comes from what demographic is a sensitive issue but there are charts online I am sure.

[Panda]

We still have people over here who believe in things like the woman's place is in the -------, the man can go outdoors and work, or the woman is either to be married or stay with her parents and work for the church kind of like a nun.

Does 'over here' prevent you from moving 'somewhere else' ?

Technically, it doesn't, but someone would have a very difficult time just moving away when they are from a sparsely populated area, have little food to eat, are young (it's illegal to live on your own under the age of 18 and your not allowed to work until you reach the age of 16), have no transportation, and have to worry about crime, illness, family, and acceptance by others (you can't get a job if people don't accept you) after moving to a location in which they know nothing about. I imagine that this sort of thing happens in a lot of places though, so it's a problem that is not particular to one country or another. The U.S. just has a lot of land, so it's problems having to do with poor people and their ability to get help from outside of their isolated community is very difficult. Educated people don't often want to move to these poor communities.

also;
Religion-based schools can offer a lot more than just studying for priest/other clergy based jobs. You can get a social worker's degree, become a psychologist etc etc, since the churches usually promote these kinds of things (social work), and they are quite well paid (better than teachers )

Yeah, but not everyone who has that sort of degree want's a job like that. Some people who have that kind of degree work in aquariums (training and taking care of animals), businesses (making sure workers are happy and productive), or hospitals (helping to take care of people illnesses).

I'm not going to school because I don't believe in the idea of going to college. I would be throwing away a lot of money if I didn't believe in getting an education which is one reason why lazy people irritate me. It's one thing to simply have beliefs that say going to public schools and colleges is a bad idea, but quite another to just be lazy. I feel like lazy leaches of people drag me down while I'm trying to pursue my educational goals.

Could you clarify this a bit, i cant make much sense of it

Paying for college is expensive. Some people don't believe it's right to go to college. If you went to college over here, and don't really want to be there, you would be wasting a lot of money. However, there are a students who go to school over here just because their parents told them to. These students don't care so much about going to college and are very lazy when it comes to doing their work. I've heard about them doing all sorts of things when it comes to trying to get out of doing their projects. Their laziness tends to affect how you progress in school, especially if you have to do group work with them. Their laziness irritates me because I don't know all of the answers and would like it if they would work as a part of the group instead of expecting everyone else to figure it out, but these people just don't care.

\\\ all of these things i've said/referred to, are based on my knowledge on how shit works in finland&scandinavia (and the rest of the EU AFAIK)

And it would be interesting to hear how things differentuate in usa

I'm sure there are lazy people everywhere, so it seems as though paying for school is a major difference between what you've experienced and what happens in some areas of the USA (It's a big country. So I can't speak for every place in it).

[Jasper1984]

Oh yes, what stupid I am, lets continue killing each other! ... Population control is for greenpeacers.

We are not talking about world peace, or population control. Make your own thread. And you can choose between: population control, famine, disasters, war, genocide or disease. Which one do you chose?

I do not always agree about competition, I find sometimes people try to cut corners and that is why I always hate it.

Cheating is bad, and so is over-ambitiousness.(That can cause people do cheat.) But i don't think you can/want really make a system to the latter, it is sort-of up to culture. I never said everyone should strive for a high education, just that everyone should be able to.
About laziness, i dislike people who are lazy and still demand a lot of things. But i have been extremely motivated when i had my physics study, and am extremely demotivated and placid now. It really is hard to get motivated for something when your drive is taken away from under you. If you're unmotivated, you're not motivated to find a new goal to drive you.

don't question the free market bro

Do question it trying to arrange all human affairs with free market is folly. I think it is a very useful tool in many respects. Allow people to find new ways of doing things, and letting reality decide if it is good. But it is easily overused, and there are cases it is counterproductive.
I have been thinking of making some models showing off some places where capitalism by itself will fail/succeed. For one, supply-demand can actually have a negative feedback. Say doctors just wanted to make a living with the least amount of work possible. It takes a long while for doctors to be trained so its supply is nearly constant for a long while. Say there are too little doctors, the price goes up, doctors don't have to work as long to get what they need, work less. Example of more demand causing less supply.
Sorry, this is off-topic. Feel free to make a thread and pm me.

Does 'over here' prevent you from moving 'somewhere else'?

I think you are _way_ underestimate the power of the place and people a person grew up in have.

[manored]

We cant speak about vertical mobility winhout first speaking about whenever vertical mobility is right or wrong, and in what circunstances, and in what measures. And that involves a painfull amount of other themes.

[SwiftSpear]

swift if that is how it is in canada, I am never going there. it sounds miserable.

My best friend makes more than me with no education and my dad started his own business just fine. Maybe it is just my state but there is no problem going through the ranks. Eventually there is a ceiling for positions like CEOS but you can get pretty high up if you want. I know a guy who worked at ibm making 175k after graduation same degree as me, has a felony and is from your average middle class south Louisiana family. The difference between he and I was that he would put his nose to the grindstone.

There are plenty of ways to elevate one' self, maybe it is just Canada, I hope canada is not that bad but I do not know anyone that with sufficient effort was unable to get higher in society. Now I doubt most people will become billionaires, that is a ridiculous jump but then again that much wealth is fucking pointless

I could make pretty good money if I dropped this silly notion of becoming educated and just joined a construction company or apprenticed as a plumber. But that's not the kind of work I find remotely interesting or fulfilling.

My situation I find frustrating. The nearest university I can study at is an hour and 15 min drive from my house, and I can't afford to live on campus because I don't have that kind of money, and my parents really can't afford to help me out at all (aside from providing me somewhere to live), yet I can't get a student loan larger than 10,000, because that's the most the bank will give me, and my parents make too much money for me to be eligible for a governmental student loan. I can afford to do school for 2 years at any given time, added with working my ass off all summer with basically no holiday time at all, and then I have to work for two years to pay off my dept before I can go back to school. Basically, it just really sucks, and I don't like living like this.

I can't figure out why the Canadian government thinks only hobos and rich kids should be educated. Why is it so difficult for someone low middle class to get a frigging university education?

I'm not the most brilliant person in the world, but I'm not an idiot either. I just want a frigging degree.

[manored]

They dont think that, its just that helping the poor gives out a better impression to the general public than making it fair for everone. Governments, as far as I know, are more concerned with the public opinion about then than with actually making the country go forward, and this explains most of the stupid things they do.

[CarRepairer]

Inequality existing has nothing to do with idiots who believe they shouldn't have to work to get ahead, inequality exists because it's actively promoted by people who want to take advantage of said idiots.

It takes two to tango.

For me, going to college was a natural choice because my parents had also gone through it , and it was free for me.

What a terrible idea. If college is a natural choice because it was free and your parents went through it, this makes it a natural choice for everyone else where you live. College is not for everyone, in fact not even for most people. By making this luxury so natural (it's a luxury, you don't need it to live, it costs many resources to create and maintain a college from building it to hiring professors) its effectiveness is greatly diminshed.

[Peet]

College is not for everyone, in fact not even for most people. By making this luxury so natural (it's a luxury, you don't need it to live, it costs many resources to create and maintain a college from building it to hiring professors) its effectiveness is greatly diminshed.

That's an interesting point. Are you referring to post-secondary education's effectiveness being diminished in absolute terms or relative to the average joe?