Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Communist type economies don't even need money to function..you don't need money to produce things.. just nationalize all companies and hand their control to me!
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Thus far, tbh, I see this disaster has two parts, one short-term, one long-term:
1. Short-term, the world's financial system is going to continue to bleed unrealistic profits from real-estate speculation in what was the world's richest country. This is going to screw everybody over, pretty much. The decline in the value of the dollar has been largely tied to this issue, as it's directly related to the Fed's rates and Treasury intervention- adding more money to the supply just makes the existing dollars weaker and weaker, but even worse yet, it's casting greater doubt upon our willingness to repay.
To reverse this... it will be necessary for whoever wins the election to pretty much butcher our government's programs, to return our balance of payments on our debt to a realistic level and restore confidence in the bedrock of our economy- the good ol' T-Bills. Because if that doesn't happen, then we are all pretty well screwed- we might see a crash that goes beyond 1929, at that point.
No matter what rhetoric is being used in public, the choices are going to be pretty much unavoidable- the real question is what gets cut, and how much. Should become a very interesting series of questions during our Presidential debates... both candidates seem to be having enormous problems understanding and articulating themselves on this, though. It's like they're still living in a normal world, pretty much... and I'm growing rather concerned that we're supposed to pick between two men who seem to be so slow to grasp the obvious.
Hopefully the crisis can be halted before hyperinflation starts kicking in and our debt becomes worthless, but we'll just have to see whether everybody wakes up and realizes that while our housing bubble represents a very significant erosion of our national worth, due to federal spending to attempt to halt the disaster, at the end of the day, we're still America, we still make great things and have lots of real, bona-fide wealth.
This is, more or less, a big monetary-policy issue, and frankly I feel like it's not being analyzed terribly well by the breathless commentators.
Simply put, we allowed our speculators to become too highly leveraged to survive a lot of questioning about the ability of our country's citizens to repay their collective debt... and once people start questioning something that fundamental and it's found that the debts cannot be converted into ready cash, or is simply not worth what it was valued at, it's going to hurt, period. I suspect that, at the end of the day, we'll just have to live with fewer investment banks, and trust will be very slow to rebuild with international buyers of US debt based on US buyers of things.
2. The long-term consequences are actually much more dangerous, both for the world and for America in particular.
Here in my hometown, we have crackerjack houses, that as late as a year and a half ago were selling for two hundred thousand dollars. They were worth maybe one hundred twenty, in terms of reasonable profits after cost. They aren't well-built, either- so letting them all sit around rotting for lack of owners is not an option- then we'd be seeing the loss of not just paper valuation... but real property.
That is a very, very very serious crisis... and once again, our political leadership seems utterly unable to address it in a coherent manner.
I was talking to one of my brothers the other day. He's an architect, and needless to say, he's been hurt by all of this- thus far, not too bad, but with the financial mess continuing, who can say?
At any rate... I came up with a crazy idea... maybe if one of you guys has some real connections out there... spread it along, maybe it'll help things along.
At the high end of government and finance... there's lots of talk about how to fix things up, and deal to some extent with the short-term mess. All well and good.
But the long-term mess is going to require more fundamental action- in fact, nothing less than country-wide efforts, in my opinion, to turn things around and demonstrate to the world that Americans see the real problem and have their act together.
Basically, what I think should be done is this. All of the banks holding the mortgage-backed securities... should, under some governmental body at the Federal level, pool that massive collection of dodgy paper together. Unlikely, but it'd really help with the rest of the plan.
Secondly, I believe that all city officials should get together with the Neighborhood Associations in all of the housing developments that have been smashed up by this... and make a little deal, between them and the holder of the mortgages, to wit:
The Neighborhood Associations will be responsible for upkeep of the properties which have been vacated. They will get as much help as the cities can give them- maybe they can cut a deal, they'll pay up-front to have city workers mow grass, fix roofs, etc., and keep these houses in good repair.
These houses will then be sold, at whatever the banks can get for them, and the proceeds will be paid partly to offset the costs to the Neighborhood Associations.
Yes, I'm sure there will be a million objections... but in a crisis like this, I feel this is a win-win-win for all involved.
One way or another, the banks are going to lose money on the former paper values of those houses. That's not a question- it's a reality, and must be dealt with. The question is how much, and how long before they see real money- if nothing else, that will repay some of their creditors as they go bankrupt. However, the longer that we treat this problem as ancillary... the worse things will get.
Cities will go for this, because their tax bases are being utterly destroyed. I doubt if they'd even bat an eyelash, if presented with this, they're probably desperate for some sort of realistic plan that isn't just a bailout program for people who can't afford their current mortgages.
Most Neighborhood Associations will love this, because in the long run, it will greatly improve their property values, improve their neighborhoods, and generally create something positive, instead of slow-motion disaster as empty houses fall apart.
If anybody here has the kinds of connections to actually get this in front of somebody who matters, go for it... I'm tired of watching people generally ignore the real implications of all of this.
This can, and should, be a big blow to the paper-money guys. Fair enough. But we should all do our best to prevent it from destroying real value of real assets... or we're going to wreck America for decades, imo. Pretty stupid outcome for something that was largely the fault of guys at the high end playing poker, imho.
1. Short-term, the world's financial system is going to continue to bleed unrealistic profits from real-estate speculation in what was the world's richest country. This is going to screw everybody over, pretty much. The decline in the value of the dollar has been largely tied to this issue, as it's directly related to the Fed's rates and Treasury intervention- adding more money to the supply just makes the existing dollars weaker and weaker, but even worse yet, it's casting greater doubt upon our willingness to repay.
To reverse this... it will be necessary for whoever wins the election to pretty much butcher our government's programs, to return our balance of payments on our debt to a realistic level and restore confidence in the bedrock of our economy- the good ol' T-Bills. Because if that doesn't happen, then we are all pretty well screwed- we might see a crash that goes beyond 1929, at that point.
No matter what rhetoric is being used in public, the choices are going to be pretty much unavoidable- the real question is what gets cut, and how much. Should become a very interesting series of questions during our Presidential debates... both candidates seem to be having enormous problems understanding and articulating themselves on this, though. It's like they're still living in a normal world, pretty much... and I'm growing rather concerned that we're supposed to pick between two men who seem to be so slow to grasp the obvious.
Hopefully the crisis can be halted before hyperinflation starts kicking in and our debt becomes worthless, but we'll just have to see whether everybody wakes up and realizes that while our housing bubble represents a very significant erosion of our national worth, due to federal spending to attempt to halt the disaster, at the end of the day, we're still America, we still make great things and have lots of real, bona-fide wealth.
This is, more or less, a big monetary-policy issue, and frankly I feel like it's not being analyzed terribly well by the breathless commentators.
Simply put, we allowed our speculators to become too highly leveraged to survive a lot of questioning about the ability of our country's citizens to repay their collective debt... and once people start questioning something that fundamental and it's found that the debts cannot be converted into ready cash, or is simply not worth what it was valued at, it's going to hurt, period. I suspect that, at the end of the day, we'll just have to live with fewer investment banks, and trust will be very slow to rebuild with international buyers of US debt based on US buyers of things.
2. The long-term consequences are actually much more dangerous, both for the world and for America in particular.
Here in my hometown, we have crackerjack houses, that as late as a year and a half ago were selling for two hundred thousand dollars. They were worth maybe one hundred twenty, in terms of reasonable profits after cost. They aren't well-built, either- so letting them all sit around rotting for lack of owners is not an option- then we'd be seeing the loss of not just paper valuation... but real property.
That is a very, very very serious crisis... and once again, our political leadership seems utterly unable to address it in a coherent manner.
I was talking to one of my brothers the other day. He's an architect, and needless to say, he's been hurt by all of this- thus far, not too bad, but with the financial mess continuing, who can say?
At any rate... I came up with a crazy idea... maybe if one of you guys has some real connections out there... spread it along, maybe it'll help things along.
At the high end of government and finance... there's lots of talk about how to fix things up, and deal to some extent with the short-term mess. All well and good.
But the long-term mess is going to require more fundamental action- in fact, nothing less than country-wide efforts, in my opinion, to turn things around and demonstrate to the world that Americans see the real problem and have their act together.
Basically, what I think should be done is this. All of the banks holding the mortgage-backed securities... should, under some governmental body at the Federal level, pool that massive collection of dodgy paper together. Unlikely, but it'd really help with the rest of the plan.
Secondly, I believe that all city officials should get together with the Neighborhood Associations in all of the housing developments that have been smashed up by this... and make a little deal, between them and the holder of the mortgages, to wit:
The Neighborhood Associations will be responsible for upkeep of the properties which have been vacated. They will get as much help as the cities can give them- maybe they can cut a deal, they'll pay up-front to have city workers mow grass, fix roofs, etc., and keep these houses in good repair.
These houses will then be sold, at whatever the banks can get for them, and the proceeds will be paid partly to offset the costs to the Neighborhood Associations.
Yes, I'm sure there will be a million objections... but in a crisis like this, I feel this is a win-win-win for all involved.
One way or another, the banks are going to lose money on the former paper values of those houses. That's not a question- it's a reality, and must be dealt with. The question is how much, and how long before they see real money- if nothing else, that will repay some of their creditors as they go bankrupt. However, the longer that we treat this problem as ancillary... the worse things will get.
Cities will go for this, because their tax bases are being utterly destroyed. I doubt if they'd even bat an eyelash, if presented with this, they're probably desperate for some sort of realistic plan that isn't just a bailout program for people who can't afford their current mortgages.
Most Neighborhood Associations will love this, because in the long run, it will greatly improve their property values, improve their neighborhoods, and generally create something positive, instead of slow-motion disaster as empty houses fall apart.
If anybody here has the kinds of connections to actually get this in front of somebody who matters, go for it... I'm tired of watching people generally ignore the real implications of all of this.
This can, and should, be a big blow to the paper-money guys. Fair enough. But we should all do our best to prevent it from destroying real value of real assets... or we're going to wreck America for decades, imo. Pretty stupid outcome for something that was largely the fault of guys at the high end playing poker, imho.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
argh the current situation was caused by sub-prime loans not real estate speculation.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Sub-prime loans, and especially those with clauses causing large bumps in interest after a few years, are one of the problems, but mainly, no... this was caused by rampant real-estate speculation.
The sub-prime loans were made to allow people to buy houses that were really priced beyond their means. This in turn pushed up home values in general, and created a really nasty vicious circle.
It's a classic economic bubble, pure and simple.
Speculators on the high end kept making profits by leveraging the difference between the value of a given giant portfolio of loans' theoretical worth today and the worth tomorrow. What made it keep going was that, on Wall Street, the loans' values went up, because everybody figured that with rising home prices, people could just sell their houses at a profit and the banks would get repaid- see why they kept going for it?
Then, when it started to become clear that many borrowers could not repay... nor could they find buyers... the panic started. Most of this mess started almost two years ago, what we're seeing now is the high-end guys having to finally acknowledge how stupidly they've behaved, tbh.
If you're not sure I'm correct, I'm sorry but that's pretty much all that I can say without wasting time referring you to the countless articles about the rising home prices everywhere over the last 3-5 years.
The sub-prime loans were made to allow people to buy houses that were really priced beyond their means. This in turn pushed up home values in general, and created a really nasty vicious circle.
It's a classic economic bubble, pure and simple.
Speculators on the high end kept making profits by leveraging the difference between the value of a given giant portfolio of loans' theoretical worth today and the worth tomorrow. What made it keep going was that, on Wall Street, the loans' values went up, because everybody figured that with rising home prices, people could just sell their houses at a profit and the banks would get repaid- see why they kept going for it?
Then, when it started to become clear that many borrowers could not repay... nor could they find buyers... the panic started. Most of this mess started almost two years ago, what we're seeing now is the high-end guys having to finally acknowledge how stupidly they've behaved, tbh.
If you're not sure I'm correct, I'm sorry but that's pretty much all that I can say without wasting time referring you to the countless articles about the rising home prices everywhere over the last 3-5 years.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
the bankers I know who have been telling me about this coming housing crash have been saying different and it is all going like they told me it would. I believe them over some random guy speculating on the internet.Argh wrote:this was caused by rampant real-estate speculation.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
smoth is correct, as far as i know
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Well, as I've said, the information I've cited is quite readily available, for those who want to fact-check, and not just assume things...
http://www.ofheo.gov/hpi.aspx?Nav=275
And their reports, and the implications thereof can be cross-checked easily enough... just do searches about the "housing bubble" etc. dealing with the last 3 years.
In short... whatever bankers you're talking to, Smoth... I'm glad they're not holding my money, if they're stupid enough to just blame the sub-prime guys, and not the system that was making it possible for them to continue to operate.
Fanny and Fred repackaged the debt... the speculators bought it, with two factors involved:
1. The implied government guarantee of that debt.
2. Rapidly-rising housing prices, that provided everybody with accounting that made it all look safe, because the asset values backing the debt were rising, when in fact the values of these assets were appreciating due to this vicious circle- higher values made it more attractive to get more people into houses they could not repay, and at the high end, the leverage boys were all too happy to keep this cycle going until people began to question the worth of the assets (hence the rapid decline in the price of housing- where do you think that's coming from... duh) and the ability of anybody to repay at the inflated values, given that, with a falling value of the assets, pretty soon everybody who bought a house in the last 4-5 years... would be doing so at a loss.
Again... it is not hard to verify my statements... and I would kindly tell you guys that if you want to argue with me, you need to cite real facts, not just disparage my opinion. I may be a poor guy, but I read the Wall Street Journal and I know wtf has actually been going on. It's all tied together, people- the sub-prime guys would never, ever have been able to keep it up long enough to cause this, if there hadn't been companies like Bear Stearns playing games with assets whose real value was vastly overstated.
At any rate... meh... that's all I have to say about this. In the end... the causes are pretty much irrelevant, other than whatever regulatory overhaul will be required to prevent it happening again. The effects are what I'm concerned about. What's happening now... is the easy part.
http://www.ofheo.gov/hpi.aspx?Nav=275
And their reports, and the implications thereof can be cross-checked easily enough... just do searches about the "housing bubble" etc. dealing with the last 3 years.
In short... whatever bankers you're talking to, Smoth... I'm glad they're not holding my money, if they're stupid enough to just blame the sub-prime guys, and not the system that was making it possible for them to continue to operate.
Fanny and Fred repackaged the debt... the speculators bought it, with two factors involved:
1. The implied government guarantee of that debt.
2. Rapidly-rising housing prices, that provided everybody with accounting that made it all look safe, because the asset values backing the debt were rising, when in fact the values of these assets were appreciating due to this vicious circle- higher values made it more attractive to get more people into houses they could not repay, and at the high end, the leverage boys were all too happy to keep this cycle going until people began to question the worth of the assets (hence the rapid decline in the price of housing- where do you think that's coming from... duh) and the ability of anybody to repay at the inflated values, given that, with a falling value of the assets, pretty soon everybody who bought a house in the last 4-5 years... would be doing so at a loss.
Again... it is not hard to verify my statements... and I would kindly tell you guys that if you want to argue with me, you need to cite real facts, not just disparage my opinion. I may be a poor guy, but I read the Wall Street Journal and I know wtf has actually been going on. It's all tied together, people- the sub-prime guys would never, ever have been able to keep it up long enough to cause this, if there hadn't been companies like Bear Stearns playing games with assets whose real value was vastly overstated.
At any rate... meh... that's all I have to say about this. In the end... the causes are pretty much irrelevant, other than whatever regulatory overhaul will be required to prevent it happening again. The effects are what I'm concerned about. What's happening now... is the easy part.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
I tend to think it was the low interest rates that started the ball rolling. After all, home buyers are competing with each other for homes. Low interest rates means that a buyer can afford to pay much more for a home, because their mortgage can be that much larger. As long as interest rates stayed low, there would be an arms race of buyers competing with each other for the same homes, driving prices up to the maximum that a buyer could bear. Then the sub-primes come in, giving the buyers the ability to think they can bear much more than they can. The bubble was created by the low interest rates. Speculation is intrinsically linked to any bubble - when a market climbs like that, people are going to get in on the action.
The sub-prime banking mess just exacerbated the inevitable burst, pushing it beyond limits. The deregulation of banks took the safeties off so that inevitable burst, causing the sub-prime explosion to rip financial institutions to shreds.
So in short, you're both right. It was the perfect storm of stupid.
The sub-prime banking mess just exacerbated the inevitable burst, pushing it beyond limits. The deregulation of banks took the safeties off so that inevitable burst, causing the sub-prime explosion to rip financial institutions to shreds.
So in short, you're both right. It was the perfect storm of stupid.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Oh, no doubt, the sub-prime stuff was a key element. If people buy things they cannot afford, that's bad.
I'm just trying to explain why it kept going on so long. The sequence is a little more complicated than it looks:
1. People want a house.
2. They approach a lender.
3. They can't really afford a house they want really bad, or their credit isn't great.
4. They get a sub-prime loan, or a prime loan that is nonetheless not a good deal for them as consumers, but they're so happy with the price, they go for it.
5. After closing, that debt got resold, through operators like Countrywide Financial, and ultimately became part of packages of debt sold off in huge lots through Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.
That is where the speculation was. Consumers were speculating (and again, this is easy to check) on the rise in home prices... and so were the big guys.
Various players, seeing the rise in home values, were able to get various buyers to purchase vast amounts of debt. That money was then... rolled right back into yet-more sub-prime lending.
See, people? Other than prime mortgages from a traditional bank, this was basically debt sold to all sorts of speculators, who were basically betting that they couldn't lose- either the debts would be repaid, the owners would sell at a higher price than they bought for, and they'd profit thereby... or, if all else failed... the US Government would bail them out.
I see this as less about stupidity than collective greed, myself. From the young power-couples who bought $600,000 homes on $80,000 incomes to the guys at Bear Stearns selling this supposedly-safe debt to investors all over the world... greed killed the system.
I have pretty much zero sympathy for everybody who's stuck with house payments that they can't afford, frankly, unless it's because of some factor like losing their jobs, etc. You bought it... live with it.
And I have even less sympathy with Wall Street. They've screwed the whole world over... and we're supposed to care that thousands of them are out of a job, that New York may no longer be the finance capitol of the world? I don't think so. Oh, boo hoo, we'll have American startups seeking cash in Asia. Not the end of the world.
As one scathing editiorial in the Journal put it recently... "maybe we'll have to get those smart people out of New York, making real things again".
All that said... I have enormous amounts of sympathy with the ordinary people who would like to buy houses to live in... with the neighborhoods that going to fall apart if their homes sit empty, and the cities that will fall apart financially if they have no tax base.
That... is the real disaster. That, and just the collosal waste of it all. Think of the millions of trees, the huge rivers of gasoline, oil and chemicals... the hundreds of thousands of man-years of human effort... just ROTTING because of collective stupidity...
I'm just trying to explain why it kept going on so long. The sequence is a little more complicated than it looks:
1. People want a house.
2. They approach a lender.
3. They can't really afford a house they want really bad, or their credit isn't great.
4. They get a sub-prime loan, or a prime loan that is nonetheless not a good deal for them as consumers, but they're so happy with the price, they go for it.
5. After closing, that debt got resold, through operators like Countrywide Financial, and ultimately became part of packages of debt sold off in huge lots through Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.
That is where the speculation was. Consumers were speculating (and again, this is easy to check) on the rise in home prices... and so were the big guys.
Various players, seeing the rise in home values, were able to get various buyers to purchase vast amounts of debt. That money was then... rolled right back into yet-more sub-prime lending.
See, people? Other than prime mortgages from a traditional bank, this was basically debt sold to all sorts of speculators, who were basically betting that they couldn't lose- either the debts would be repaid, the owners would sell at a higher price than they bought for, and they'd profit thereby... or, if all else failed... the US Government would bail them out.
I see this as less about stupidity than collective greed, myself. From the young power-couples who bought $600,000 homes on $80,000 incomes to the guys at Bear Stearns selling this supposedly-safe debt to investors all over the world... greed killed the system.
I have pretty much zero sympathy for everybody who's stuck with house payments that they can't afford, frankly, unless it's because of some factor like losing their jobs, etc. You bought it... live with it.
And I have even less sympathy with Wall Street. They've screwed the whole world over... and we're supposed to care that thousands of them are out of a job, that New York may no longer be the finance capitol of the world? I don't think so. Oh, boo hoo, we'll have American startups seeking cash in Asia. Not the end of the world.
As one scathing editiorial in the Journal put it recently... "maybe we'll have to get those smart people out of New York, making real things again".
All that said... I have enormous amounts of sympathy with the ordinary people who would like to buy houses to live in... with the neighborhoods that going to fall apart if their homes sit empty, and the cities that will fall apart financially if they have no tax base.
That... is the real disaster. That, and just the collosal waste of it all. Think of the millions of trees, the huge rivers of gasoline, oil and chemicals... the hundreds of thousands of man-years of human effort... just ROTTING because of collective stupidity...
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
To be fair, if I know bankers I might know a bit more than I let onto and might not need a lecture.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
His post wasnt directly adressed to you, was it?smoth wrote:To be fair, if I know bankers I might know a bit more than I let onto and might not need a lecture.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
manored wrote:His post wasnt directly adressed to you, was it?smoth wrote:To be fair, if I know bankers I might know a bit more than I let onto and might not need a lecture.
this image isn't addressed to you is it?
- Attachments
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Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Popular poster!Smoth wrote:1216261737935.jpg [139.39 KB]
Downloaded 11 times
Yeah, I have a HBOS account too. But it has -£lots in. Hope they lose that minor detail in the transition :D
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
*Running about panicking*
Oh wait. I've been sitting about expecting this to finally happen for years.
Put your savings into semi-precious materials and goods.
Oh wait. I've been sitting about expecting this to finally happen for years.
Put your savings into semi-precious materials and goods.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
No, buy steel/iron/aluminium/etc, those are always sure to be valuable... I mean, you cant make a car with gold can you? :) Well maybe you can but its gonna be freaking heavy and fragile.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
IMO round up and shoot every f**** wearing a black suit and hand over the few jobs they did that are actually necessary to skynet.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
What about the thousands of people who bought houses they couldnt pay for? :)
Thats why emotions are BAAAAAAD, one should make sure he his decisions are not a logical disaster before mixing his emotions in.
Thats why emotions are BAAAAAAD, one should make sure he his decisions are not a logical disaster before mixing his emotions in.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
In my opinion it's the lenders fault if he didn't make sure he could get his money back, he can suck it. Some of us learn this the hard way in elementary school, others later I guess.
And if you can't afford your house, sell it?
And if you can't afford your house, sell it?
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
2 points:Zpock wrote: And if you can't afford your house, sell it?
A. Because the market has dropped significantly, selling your house is no answer because you will still owe the bank moneys. [although im not sure maybe if you have a mortgage like that then you dont owe the bank money if you just abandon the house? i dunno]
B. Auctions of foreclosed houses will further depreciate housing prices, leading to kind of a vicious circle.
Smoth et. al:
While sub-prime mortgage may have been what triggered all this, i would invite you folks to take a gander at the CDS market:
wiki article and a little explanation about how it works...
i quote:
Lets think about that shall we. About 62 Trillion USD, in a completely unregulated and for all we know VIRTUAL market. A lot of companies have this money on their balance sheets but have increasing trouble making it into actual liquidity. Do we see a problem here?wiki wrote:reported the notional amount on outstanding OTC credit default swaps to be $42.6 trillion[1] in June 2007, up from $28.9 trillion in December 2006 ($13.9 trillion in December 2005)
Some do.
Oh, to those propagating communism: Cmon guys this isnt 1960 its no longer cool to think communism works, its sad.
Pls Hoi tombom and to a lesser extend smoth: less OT thread poison.
Last edited by BaNa on 19 Sep 2008, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Thoughts on the financial crisis - IS THE WORLD ENDING?
Of course.tombom wrote:it's been obvious this would happen for a while, people are idiots
these sorts of things always happen people continue to be idiots
People being idiots and withdrawing their money the second something scary happens is what causes failures...