UAC and multiple datadirs in Windows, pt 2

[Radtoo]

@smoth: It won't be one or the other. It can be all of the configured directories. They'll be looked up in order, until the files are found.

There is no problem with the files spring's setup installed ending up in the shared and administrator write-only folders, and an user putting HIS stuff into his documents folder during a lan party afterwards. It should all work.

The only thing that possibly can happen is that there's a conflict between two files with the same name - but then, that simply shouldn't happen, because different files should have a different version pre- or postfix.

Thus, I don't see the problem. Really. It even has been tested and worked for lots of linux users, not all of which are crazy clever or even touched any documentation. :)

[AF]

The whole point about where do you find files is made pointless by putting a shortcut in the start menu to the directories. I would propose putting them in the shared directory for maps and mods and putting logs and demos etc in the users own directory, perhaps under AppData, and having a shortcut to those folders "Shared Spring Engine Content" and "My Spring Engine Content".

This way there's no invasion of my documents, mods and maps are needlessly replicated, users don't need telling where the stuffs stored, users don't have to share if they don't want to, and those who still want everything in the main spring folder can still do so.

[smoth]

The user folder is an example of corporate one size fits all philosophy. This sort of thing works great for say user settings in photoshop or say browser cookies. For games each user on the machine having their own maps and mods create clutter.

Right now my install tutorial goes:
get mod, put mod in /mods/ within the spring dir.
-believe it or not people fuck this up.

with

get mod, find your user folder in windows, within that locate X folder and maps go somewhere in here as well.
OR
if you configured spring you need to place it in /mods/

It is confusing for an end user.

People argue this helps with backups.

My C drive is used for OS, if I format I have to collect all my apps settings etc off of there. For this reason, I have my games on another hardrive. When I do reinstall the games that do not require shit in the user directory still have my shit. IN FACT if windows gets fucked, which is the situation that requires a backup.. I have to dig in the command prompt and manually backup up my files. I have lost many save files because windows hides them my documents. Although, I remember when desktop was stored in windows... so do some games.

I do not see using microsofts directory structure as necessary in spring. It is needed for applications that will have sensitive data or user specific settings. Sure it would be better to use the user directories for spring settings rather then the registry but using the user directories for maps, mods, demos or other content is a massive hassle for users. Adding the option will complicate things.

I have no problem with letting advance users change to this but I WILL FIGHT tooth and nail if anyone tries to make this the default behavior for spring after this is added. I also stand by my statement that it complicates the support of our projects.

[Radtoo]

@smoth: Clearly, you didn't read my comment about this employing ALL configured folders if its anything like on Linux.

There IS no problem. Users can put stuff into spring/mods/ if they want. Or get it from a dvd, on e:/hubby's stuff/mods.
And yet, the installer and other manager-things (or users, if they want a clean backup) can put everything into shared folders, because its just better.

[smoth]

I don't use linux so that context is lost to me.

[AF]

smoth your point is mooted by a thing called shared documents and shared data. There can be one single copy.

I still put forward the point that your enforcing your own preferences.

Your statement that there is no reason is totally untrue as there are very real bugs caused by the insistence. Are you saying telling users to go to a different directory is more cumbersome than teaching them how to set administrative file access rights on folders?

I think telling a user to click on 'shared spring content' in a start menu folder is much easier than telling them to goto their spring install, especially when most users do not know where the program files folder is, and most will go wtf when presented with something like "C:\program files\", many dont even know what 'my computer' actually does.

If you really are going to keep dismissing all points, please offer a better solution to the problem of access rights.

[Tobi]

Actually ArchiveMover would work out of the box (assuming it gets updated too) without needing to change permissions on C:\program files\spring\. Besides that if you run as admin anyway it wouldn't be harder to still put your content in program files... an empty (or nonexisting) directory doesn't hurt much I'd say.

In particular when prog files is checked first and used if permissions are fine nothing would get any more complex for those who run as administrator always, and everything would get easier for those who run as limited user.

[smoth]

install spring to C:\games\spring\ done.

ok, ignoring AF now.

radtoo, I understand allowing user preferences, I really do. I just do not understand the desire to use the windows /user/ space over one all inclusive directory. That is what flozi, peet and I are on about.

[FLOZi]

Once again the content creators are ignored.

Yeah, not like we might actually have more insight than normal end users.

[AF]

Tobi, you do not have Vista and I am telling you, this is not how it works.

Program files is protected to system accounts. Administrator accounts are not in this user group unless they elevate the privilledges of a user account via UAC. You cannot do this to my computer and windows explorer, and have to manually modify the file access rights.

This could be fixed for archivemover but it would involve UAC prompts for archivemover.exe to run, and password prompts for non admin users. Copy paste would not work.

I also think that now you really are burying your head in the sand smoth. This is not about moving things to user/ space, this is about fixing the permissions issue.



Things the people who object refuse to acknowledge or answer

• 1) Why are you arguing against something that does not affect you
  This change only affects new users, introduces new features to the engine, and it has no effect whatsoever on you and your install. We know you don't want stuff in your user space, we've told you that you wont have stuff fin your users pace, why are you acting as if we said the opposite?
• 2) Why are you saying everything is fine as it is when its so obviously not?
  Just because your running XP does not mean that users of other operating systems are perfectly fine. Once again you are not affected by the proposed changes so why are you kicking up a fuss?
• 3) Why are no alternative solutions being offered or even looked for?
  Your not even acknowleding that there's a problem in the first place!
• 4) How is a shortcut to the content folder in the start menu making support harder to give than making users trek through windows explorer to find the spring folder?
  You do realize most users do not know where they installed spring, what file paths are, or how to reach it, many don't even know what C drive means never mind what it is or even what my computer is!
• 5) Even if you were affected which you aren't, the whole thing is configurable, it can be changed, you can still have it the way you want
  So why are you objecting when its an optional change?

Until these points are addressed I fail to see why the proposed changes shouldn't be put into action. They do not affect the people who are objecting, and solve a very real problem, and even add new features to the engine in the process.

[Posts]

i suggest leaving a note/shortcut in
C:\program files\spring\maps
C:\program files\spring\mods

[rattle]

I'd much prefer it to be an option, I don't want to move appdata or my documents around only to prevent cluttering up the C drive

[AF]

but it is an option just edit the config file telling spring where to look. We could make it as simple as an installer option. I don't see why people are opposing the change when its an optional change.

[smoth]

af you are willfully ignoring our key point. This displeases us and we have not eaten for months...

to answer your questions...

1: because users rearranging things will then follow the install tutorial and wonder why shit breaks. because they fucked with their paths. We have to deal with this stupid shit, not you.

2: everything is fine. I already offered a suggestion which you ignored: install spring to C:\games\spring\ BANG AND THE DIRT IS GONE!

3: see #2. oh I suggested that way before your post.

4: because they have 1 folder not several.

5: see 1

[AF]

You do realize I can take your arguments are take any mention of polluting user space and replace it with mention of polluting C drive? There are plenty more people who'll object to what your proposing than a .spring folder in the shared application data folder.

It also goes against the assumption by anyone with tech experience, who not remembering every single install directory for every program, would assume its in c:\program files\, especially if they already have spring installed in the past. Then we'd have to update all our documentation, and there are still people who haven't transitioned from the taspring -> spring folder names, its all messy.

And are you forgetting that I do deal with 'this shit' too. I have plenty of people who message me on msn who ask me questions about spring, they see it as "Why ask on the forums or in the lobby when I can message AF or some other spring community member on my msn/yahoo/aim/gtalk".

I'm not stupid smoth and I'm not some automaton operating outside this community that plods through it when they're bored. This affects me, I use spring, I develop for spring, I do pretty much everything in some capacity.

I would also say the topic of whether allowing multiple folders is a disputed point that belongs in its own thread and as such should not be used as justification.

As a side note, Vista already has a dedicated folder for this exact purpose to solve this exact problem, and its actually used by various games. So far crysis Galactic civilizations, supreme commander, hellgate, and UT3 based games are all saving to that location of the My Games folder in my documents. Its even reccomended in all the microsoft documents.

[smoth]

af you are willfully ignoring our key point. This displeases us and we have not eaten for months...

2: everything is fine. I already offered a suggestion which you ignored: install spring to C:\games\spring\ BANG AND THE DIRT IS GONE!

[AF]

You do realize I can take your arguments are take any mention of polluting user space and replace it with mention of polluting C drive? There are plenty more people who'll object to what your proposing than a .spring folder in the shared application data folder.

It also goes against the assumption by anyone with tech experience, who not remembering every single install directory for every program, would assume its in c:\program files\, especially if they already have spring installed in the past. Then we'd have to update all our documentation, and there are still people who haven't transitioned from the taspring -> spring folder names, its all messy.

[Radtoo]

1: because users rearranging things will then follow the install tutorial and wonder why shit breaks. because they fucked with their paths. We have to deal with this stupid shit, not you.

Hang on. Again, what Tobi said, but in different words:
The tutorial should work exactly the same. The only difference should be that IF you put things into the other supported folders, that will work too.

[Forboding Angel]

THe problem magically goes away if you have spring install in NOT program files. SImple fix. C:\Spring

DOn't split it up. THat just makes things really really difficult in some ways.

I wouldn't be heartbroken if you changed the name of the mods folder to something better tho.

[Tobi]

Tobi, you do not have Vista and I am telling you, this is not how it works.

Actually I do have vista