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NWO

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[Krogoth86]
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Re: NWO

Post by [Krogoth86] »

jcnossen wrote:The money masters is a retarded movie, the reasoning is basically "banks create money by loaning out more than they have in reserve, and that's why lots of people are poor" :|

I want my time back!
Well there actually are several films, sites and projects which say so (i.e. they talk about this priciple of using taxes and the fact that they charge something for the production of money which has to be paid with money). There also is a very nice 3-part cartoon about this which I find funny - it's in german though:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9BrLrwbkQWQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aK2yZlHk4cA&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0VOtdQrCoyk&feature=related

Maybe you can enjoy the pictures... :wink:

I currently think that there has to be some truth to this because I saw no good argumentation which prooves this "accusations" wrong...
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CarRepairer
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Re: NWO

Post by CarRepairer »

The government sent an invisible agent to dgun my base and then charged me tax so that they could reclaim the metal.

Should have made radar.
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jcnossen
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Re: NWO

Post by jcnossen »

I currently think that there has to be some truth to this because I saw no good argumentation which prooves this "accusations" wrong...
Disclaimer: I only watched parts of the money masters...
The money masters is basically about how fractional reserve banking (the fact that banks can loan out more than they have) is a bad system and is causing more debt for the average person.

I agree with you that there is some truth in there, because this banking system is probably the cause of most money inflation.

However, I haven't seen him talk about the positive aspects of fractional reserve banking, which is that it drives development because loans are much cheaper and therefore allow much more investing.

Now that we're recommending things, I like to recommend reading "The origin of wealth", which is a book about complexity economics.
It explains a cool experiment where they simulate an economy with a simulation somewhat similar to the Game of Life, with moving entities that can trade and harvest from the land.
The cool thing is that once they allow borrowing in the simulation, some entities in the system will start to function as banks, borrowing huge amounts to smaller banks etc..
Amazingly enough, this reduces the hunger in the system a lot, although it does cause debt for people.
So it may seem unfair that some people control a lot of money and others have to borrow, this actually has a useful purpose for society as a whole.

I think this indicates that the US debt is out of control because of poor management and not because the system is bad.

Im too tired to try understand german though...
[Krogoth86]
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Re: NWO

Post by [Krogoth86] »

Well there is an example mentioned in part2 of the video which you'll also find at many other sites and which I haven't found a good counter-argumentation on:

The example is about a planet with 10 lifeforms. Those 10 lifeforms get money in the form of leather pieces. Everyone gets 10 pieces at an interest loan of 10%. In the end there have to be paid back 110 pieces although there just exist 100. So the consequence is that one has to lose all his pieces in order to make the others pay their loans...

This is one of the numerous examples I find convincing...
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KingRaptor
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Re: NWO

Post by KingRaptor »

I don't have a formal training in economics, but that looks like a zero-sum economics fallacy to me.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: NWO

Post by SwiftSpear »

[Krogoth86] wrote:Well there is an example mentioned in part2 of the video which you'll also find at many other sites and which I haven't found a good counter-argumentation on:

The example is about a planet with 10 lifeforms. Those 10 lifeforms get money in the form of leather pieces. Everyone gets 10 pieces at an interest loan of 10%. In the end there have to be paid back 110 pieces although there just exist 100. So the consequence is that one has to lose all his pieces in order to make the others pay their loans...

This is one of the numerous examples I find convincing...
What? Wealth isn't a fixed figure thing... It can be both created and destroyed.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: NWO

Post by Felix the Cat »

But if we create wealth (in this case money) the value of each unit of money decreases.

So if we create 10 pieces of leather, and give one to each lifeform, we are incurring inflation - each piece of leather is now worth 100/110 of what it was (91%).

So now everyone loses - the bank loaned out 100 pieces of leather but is only effectively getting 91 back, and the lifeforms lose because they are now broke.

If the cycle continues it's even worse. The lifeforms all need money, so they each borrow 11 pieces of leather from the bank at 10% interest (so everyone owes 1.1 pieces of leather in interest, total payback on the loan per lifeform is 12.1 pieces of leather). We now have a situation in which there are 110 pieces of leather in existence and 121 need to be paid back. So we make 11 more pieces of leather, incurring inflation - each piece of leather is worth 110/121 of what it was, or 91%... When the loans are repaid, the bank loaned out 110 pieces of leather but is only effectively getting 100.1 pieces back... and the lifeforms are broke again and have to borrow, continuing the cycle.
Scratch
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Re: NWO

Post by Scratch »

Here's my theory about economics:

Money is like the wind. Highways and factories, trucks and trains are windmills. That is to say we can build the conduits for this wind, but can't really control the force of the wind, only try to harness its potential and put a big enough windmill up.

From time to time the wind blows at a gale, case Germany in WW2, and China at this point in time. It has a way of supercharging and compressing itself when it decides to.

Wealth comes from the US though. Now to thump the bible some, it says when people lack vision they perish, and looking at history I'd have to agree.

When theres vision like Germany in the 30's... germans were sold on the idea of taking over the world, it filled them with hope, and they worked as though they had one heart and mind. Of course the same thing happened with the U.S. and then there was 50 years of economic supremacy...

Although I'm not against Bush his economic policies would seem wanting. Remember during Clinton's term he left with a .5 Trillion surplus in the fed coffers.

Lets hope Obama can do some supercharging, eh?
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Felix the Cat
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Re: NWO

Post by Felix the Cat »

Last I checked, raising taxes and socializing medicine is not a good way to "supercharge". (See also: France)
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quantum
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Re: NWO

Post by quantum »

Felix the Cat wrote:But if we create wealth (in this case money) the value of each unit of money decreases.
Printing money is not creating wealth. Also, that example is meaningless because there is no real value in the system, only useless leather pieces.
[Krogoth86]
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Re: NWO

Post by [Krogoth86] »

quantum wrote:Printing money is not creating wealth. Also, that example is meaningless because there is no real value in the system, only useless leather pieces.
Well it's just an example to think about that whole system of interests. To be a bit more "real" it kinda works like this: A bank gets money from someone who deposits some. It the can use that money to give a credit with a loan if e.g. 10% while it only gives let's say 3% to the person which deposited the money. In the end the bank earns money just by handing round the money it got and doesn't do any "real work" for it...

In our times where people only have a tiny bit of their money at home in form of coins and banknotes but keep most of their money as a virtual digit a bank even can go ahead and use the money they have for multiple times to give credits (alhough they in reality wouldn't be able to pay out all that they loan). But as it's about a number in a computer and no longer about real coins and banknotes that's a simple thing to do. That way banks more or less slowly get more and more powerful as people owe them more and more money...

To come back to your point of "real value":
Well let's say you give away a big bunch of gold to let someone print a currency based on that gold. So the money is a representation for the claim to a specific amount of gold. You probably spent a tiny amount of your gold to actually pay the production of the money. The theory now is that because of the described loaning system there will be a need for more money and so money gets printed. The problem now is that this doesn't just make the money "cheaper" (i.e. one unit of your currency represents a smaller amount of gold) but with every newly printed note there also come up costs for printing which have to be paid but how do you want to do that? You only have that amount of gold you spent in the first place but you suddenly would need to actually pay more for the new currencies produced. As you probably can't do that you have to pay this somehow else. And how do you get money to pay? Right - you borrow it from a bank... :roll:
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Felix the Cat
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Re: NWO

Post by Felix the Cat »

quantum wrote:
Felix the Cat wrote:But if we create wealth (in this case money) the value of each unit of money decreases.
Printing money is not creating wealth. Also, that example is meaningless because there is no real value in the system, only useless leather pieces.
The laws of supply and demand apply to everything, from cash to cattle to crack.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: NWO

Post by SwiftSpear »

Felix the Cat wrote:But if we create wealth (in this case money) the value of each unit of money decreases.

So if we create 10 pieces of leather, and give one to each lifeform, we are incurring inflation - each piece of leather is now worth 100/110 of what it was (91%).

So now everyone loses - the bank loaned out 100 pieces of leather but is only effectively getting 91 back, and the lifeforms lose because they are now broke.

If the cycle continues it's even worse. The lifeforms all need money, so they each borrow 11 pieces of leather from the bank at 10% interest (so everyone owes 1.1 pieces of leather in interest, total payback on the loan per lifeform is 12.1 pieces of leather). We now have a situation in which there are 110 pieces of leather in existence and 121 need to be paid back. So we make 11 more pieces of leather, incurring inflation - each piece of leather is worth 110/121 of what it was, or 91%... When the loans are repaid, the bank loaned out 110 pieces of leather but is only effectively getting 100.1 pieces back... and the lifeforms are broke again and have to borrow, continuing the cycle.
The value of each piece decreases only if the value of the goods being exchanged for stays constant. The whole point of economy is that more people are constantly entering into it, and more goods are constantly being produced, so the market keeps growing... sensibly, we need more funds to support a larger market, since the exchange of goods would be impossible with only enough money in circulation to support 300 people in a market with 2 billion participants.

That is why, when the market crashes, the value of the dollar drops so hard.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: NWO

Post by Felix the Cat »

SwiftSpear wrote:The value of each piece decreases only if the value of the goods being exchanged for stays constant.
On the other hand, the value of each piece remains constant if the value of each piece is fixed to a commodity with tangible value - i.e. the gold standard. This eliminates the silent tax of inflation levied against every money-holding person in the economy, and ensures that the currency actually has real value, rather than a fragile "value by mutual agreement" or "value because the government says it has value".

This also limits the supply of currency to the amount of tangible, valuable goods available. It ensures that the government cannot simply print more money to pay off its current debts, which pretty much any economist will tell you is a Bad Thing (tm).

The value of currency can be fixed to any good with intrinsic value - gold is a good choice because it is rare, it cannot be manufactured, and it has been regarded as having high intrinsic value throughout the entire recorded history of mankind. However, other units of value have been used - colonial Virginia used tobacco, for example
tombom
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Re: NWO

Post by tombom »

Fixing money to a single thing is pretty bad in most schools of economics as far as I know. Printing a lot more money is sometimes necessary.
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Felix the Cat
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Re: NWO

Post by Felix the Cat »

tombom wrote:Fixing money to a single thing is pretty bad in most schools of economics as far as I know. Printing a lot more money is sometimes necessary.
Wikipedia: Gold Standard

That article provides a pretty good overview of the benefits and drawbacks of the gold standard. I'd argue that it is somewhat biased against the gold standard, and it certainly needs a flag for using "weasel words" (the Disadvantages and Rebuttals section contains an overwhelming volume of the word "some"), but it does provide most arguments for and against the gold standard.

Note that the arguments against the gold standard are nearly universally based on the fact that the gold standard reduces the government's ability to meddle in the economy, which is exactly the point of the gold standard in the first place. Also note that the statement "there is not enough gold to cover all currency in circulation" is very misleading, as the currency in circulation has suffered from massive inflation since the abandonment of the standard in the 1930s - because the fiat money system encourages inflation. In other words, if the gold standard had never been left we wouldn't have that problem, because the massive inflation incurred due to fiat money would not have happened.

Fractional reserve banking is another problem... if you deposit $100 in the bank, the bank only actually keeps around $10 or so in its safe - which means that you could become one very unlucky loser if there is a serious economic downturn and a run on the banks, because the bank does not in fact have your money to give back to you. This in turn promotes inflation because now there are effectively two copies of the other $90 - one copy you consider to be in your assets, and which you can borrow against or whatever, and another copy that has been loaned out by the bank to someone else.

By the way, the FDIC supposedly insures your deposits up to $100,000, but the FDIC doesn't actually have the assets needed to insure all deposits up to $100,000 - it has an alarming low amount of assets, actually. During the S&L (savings & loan) crisis in the late '80s, S&Ls were insured by a different institution - the FSLIC. The S&L crisis was the first and only major test of the federal deposit insurance program - and guess what? The FSLIC went insolvent rather quickly.
tombom
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Re: NWO

Post by tombom »

honestly i don't know enough about this sort of thing to argue with you

your political views sound like they would be fascinating though and i would appreciate further eludication
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Argh
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Re: NWO

Post by Argh »

Felix, using a commodity like gold is bad, because you end up with serious deflation over time.

Deflation is a lot worse than inflation. If you don't have enough money counters to go around, the value of a given counter keeps rising with scarcity.

Think about it. What if a "bleep"- the lowest value of currency available, was worth about the economic value of a piece of chewing gum. Then, 5 years later, it's worth the value of a bicycle. So, how do you buy chewing gum? In bushels?

And this in turn creates absurd policy problems- governments can either ignore it, reducing everybody to barter, for situations where the economic worth of the activity is lower than the lowest value of currency, or they can issue new currency at a fractional value of their current lowest-denominator money (which is what was done, over and over again, through the period leading up to the collapse of the Bretton Woods arrangement, IIRC).

If the government doesn't act quickly enough, then trade becomes impossible. Moreover, borrowing becomes essentially impossible, in a situation of deflation- what you owe on paper is now worth more and more and more in real terms.

When you look at a bank loan under the current system, and factor in taxes, overhead, and inflation... on a prime-rate, long-term loan, banks make a lot less, in real money, than it would appear. People always look at the total number, instead of looking at the projected worth of all of that money over time. Banks are making a lot more real money on the loan during the initial period, as well- if the interest rate is fixed, then they're probably not making much at all, at the end of the loan, if it occurs over a long enough period of time, like a mortgage.

Moreover... if we used gold, everybody would be at the mercy of the nation that hoarded it most successfully, because any run on the currency would eventually require that real gold be released (i.e., what happened IRL with Bretton Woods). If any nation held the vast majority of said commodity, and refused to release it to keep another country's currency from collapsing... it'd cause disasters.

In fact, we've already been there, with both gold and sterling, which is why we don't do that any more, and use a standard worth that's at least theoretically tied to GDP, or real economic activity. The "theoretically" part is worth arguing about, of course, and economists constantly do argue about it IRL, and currency traders make buy / sell decisions based on what they think... hence the shifting values of currencies against each other over time- basically, these are judgments about the real wealth of the nations involved.

Personally, I think that using something like gold is bad policy. If we had superconducting supercapacitors, energy might work, although it still has serious problems- there are plenty of economic activities that have high value, but require little energy, and many that require lots of energy, but have low value. And you'd still have all of the real issues of scarcity and hoarding.

I personally think that the current system, with all of its guesswork, is probably a better real representation of Reality than any commodity-market system. The guys who make the scaremonger videos are basically idiots who don't understand that, in the end, money's just a counter we move around by agreement, whose real worth is always a lot less than the face valuation. For example, the gold standard had nothing to do with the real economic worth of gold, as a chemical, and everything to do with gold's perceived worth in people's minds. Gold's actual worth, as a chemical, is considerably less than the perceived value, as an object of trade, even today, when converting gold into any other economic activity is basically just barter, in terms of complexity and time :P
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I2:Isaacment_Day
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Re: NWO

Post by I2:Isaacment_Day »

Felix the Cat wrote:
SwiftSpear wrote:The value of each piece decreases only if the value of the goods being exchanged for stays constant.
On the other hand, the value of each piece remains constant if the value of each piece is fixed to a commodity with tangible value - i.e. the gold standard. This eliminates the silent tax of inflation levied against every money-holding person in the economy, and ensures that the currency actually has real value, rather than a fragile "value by mutual agreement" or "value because the government says it has value".

This also limits the supply of currency to the amount of tangible, valuable goods available. It ensures that the government cannot simply print more money to pay off its current debts, which pretty much any economist will tell you is a Bad Thing (tm).

The value of currency can be fixed to any good with intrinsic value - gold is a good choice because it is rare, it cannot be manufactured, and it has been regarded as having high intrinsic value throughout the entire recorded history of mankind. However, other units of value have been used - colonial Virginia used tobacco, for example
With a gold standard people wouldnt have to invest their money in banks or anything because there would be no inflation and they could keep it under their bed. That would mean that there are less new jobs and industry etc being created because there is less investment in them.

Also if a government is producing a huge amount of money to pay off its debts there are probably bigger problems already than just the currency.
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