Nomic Thread

[KDR_11k]

All four previous posts are invalid, KDR_11k attempts to alter an immutable rule

Wait, transmogrification does not count as a change according to the Wiki article on Nomic, you cannot change the rule while it's immutable but you can make it mutable.

Also shouldn't the post count only count valid posts so people don't just spam the thread like no tomorrow?

I'd also say you should allow more posts between your posts or at least allow ignoring obviously invalid posts, otherwise anyone can just post a lolcat whenever you post, thus causing an invalid post but preventing a valid post until after you post again.

[SinbadEV]

Just to be clear, I posted those rule-sets as examples.

I didn't specify "Transmogrification" in my version of the rules as in the context of a forum based game it would almost FORCE a derail.

Also, I had intended only valid posts to count towards the win and had mis-typed.

Also, What I'm thinking, maybe, is anyone can post once between judgments.

Also, there's a thing that they do with the original Nomic where the starting immutable rules are 100 series rules starting mutable rules are 200 series and player created rules are 300 rules.

[SinbadEV]

Suggested Rules for Round 2:

Immutable Rules:

• 101 - The effect of an additional rule or an amendment to a rule take effect when the motion receives votes from three different players
• 102 - SinbadEV is a Judge
• 103 - All Registered Spring Forum members who are not Judges are Players
• 104 - All posts must follow the general forum rules and the laws of Canada.
• 105 - After a Player posts, a Judge must indicate if the Post has been accepted or rejected before that player's posts may be concidered valid again
• 106 - Any invalid posts can be removed from the thread by a Judge at the Judges sole discression
• 107 - Valid posts must declare an additional rule, an amendment to a rule, or a vote to accept an additional rule
• 108 - All new rules are mutable
• 109 - Immutable Rules cannot be changed, deleted or amended (this includes no transmorgification)
• 110 - Valid new rules do not conflict with existing rules

Mutable Rules:

• 201 - All valid posts must be between 5 and 100 words
• 202 - Valid posts cannot contain [color] tags
• 203 - Valid posts cannot contain [size] tags
• 204 - Valid posts cannot contain [img] tags
• 205 - All accepted valid posts earn the posting player 10 points
• 206 - The game is over when a player reaches 100 points
• 207 - The player with the most valid posts at the end of the game is the winner
• 208 - Valid posts contain fewer then 10 spelling and grammatical errors, and must make sense as English to a Judge

Comments? In particular adjustments to the wording of awkward rules.

[manored]

I think that the point rules should be immutable, to avoid someone winning like I would have if you hadnt mis-typed (dam you! ). Also if rules require the aproval of 3 players, then no rules giving smart people tactical advantage will be accepted... we just need a really got set of starting and immutable rules. also, all starting rules (those most important) should be immutable.

Suggested immutable rules:
*Players cannot create rules that disqualifies other players
*Players cannot create rules that makes all possible posts invalid
*Rules only take effect from the post where they were posted onyards

[KDR_11k]

Point rules are mutable specifically to be boring and silly so people will develop their own victory conditions.

[Michilus_nimbus]

Point rules are mutable specifically to be boring and silly so people will develop their own victory conditions.

That's exactly why I suggested this:

Immutable rule:
When the number of points gained by a valid accepted post changes, the change is only applied to the next valid accepted post.

[SinbadEV]

I was thinking effects of a new rule being accepted happen before the new rules effects are in place... so new rule "you get 100 points for making an accepted post"... post is accepted, you get 10 points... next person who posts get's 100 points, game is over...

but then "game is over when a player gets 10 points" still ends the game...

that's why voting is included in a number Nomic variations... so that stupid obvious "I win now" rules don't get accepted... meanwhile if you are tricky you might sneak by a new rule.

Another idea would be that you only need 1 vote from another player to get a rule in place so you have to fool fewer people... OR you could have it that each time you approve another players rule you gain an extra quarter-vote which you can save up to approve your own rules... or something like that...

[manored]

We could make it that a new rule only gets active after 3 posts from other players, or something like that. It has to be something that gives you some sort of penalty for negating a rule, or rules will never be accepted :) Or maybe we could give poins for players who voted yes for rules...

[SwiftSpear]

109 - Immutable Rules cannot be changed, deleted or amended (this includes no transmorgification)

No. It basically entirely breaks the structure of nomic doing that. If we need rules that are both immutable and unchangeable then we need to make a third catagory. As it stands some trolls are just going to come along and make some stupid rule, then make it immutable, and then bam, game is screwed.

[manored]

No mutable rules can be made immutable? :)

[SinbadEV]

How about:

Suggested Rules for Round 2:

Terms in Context:
Motion: A proposal to add a New Rule or amend or delete a current rule
Static Rules: Rules that cannot be changed within a round
Immutable Rules: Rules that cannot be changed until they are made mutable
Mutable Rules: Rules that can be modified or deleted by a motion
Transmogrify: To amend a rule so that it changes from Immutable to Mutable or from Mutable to Immutable.

Static Rules:

• 001 - Static Rules cannot be changed, deleted or amended (this includes no transmorgification)
• 002 - All posts must follow the general forum rules and the laws of Canada.
• 003 - All new Rules are Mutable
• 004 - A Immutable rule can only be amended by transmogrifying it to a mutable rule by a separate motion.

Immutable Rules:

• 101 - The effects of a motion happen when that motion receives votes from three different players
• 102 - SinbadEV is a Judge
• 103 - All Registered Spring Forum members who are not Judges are Players
• 104 - After a Player posts, a Judge must indicate if the Post has been accepted or rejected before that player's posts may be concidered valid again
• 105 - Any invalid posts can be removed from the thread by a Judge at the Judges sole discression
• 106 - Valid posts must contain a motion and/or a vote to accept a motion
• 107 - All new rules are mutable
• 108 - Valid motions do not conflict with existing rules

Mutable Rules:

• 201 - All valid posts must be between 5 and 100 words
• 202 - Valid posts cannot contain [color] tags
• 203 - Valid posts cannot contain [size] tags
• 204 - Valid posts cannot contain [img] tags
• 205 - All accepted valid posts earn the posting player 10 points
• 206 - The game is over when a player reaches 100 points
• 207 - The player with the most valid posts at the end of the game is the winner
• 208 - Valid posts contain fewer then 10 spelling and grammatical errors, and must make sense as English to a Judge

Anything I've missed?

[manored]

Looks good to me. Cant think of a way to cheat it :)

[rattle]

Yeah, a than.

[SinbadEV]

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14573&start=40 Went very well until it turned out I screwed it all up and we gave up... Let's discuss Round 3 Rules... You can come to #Nomic if you'd like.

[SwiftSpear]

Ok, talking about game 2.

I was trying to count up the scores and I reached paradox. I made a post, and sinbad posted while the post was being made, causing that post to be delayed in validation. Then I made another post, and sinbad validated that post without validating the other one, so there is no way I can possibly temporally recreate the record of the game while still following the rule "After a Player posts, a Judge must indicate if the Post has been accepted or rejected before that player's posts may be concidered valid again", and since we have no method of dealing with judge error, effectively the game has reached a paradoxical state where, within the rules, there is nothing we can do the resume it.

Therefore, I propose we leave the game active indefinitely so as not to break the rule "The game is over when a player reaches 100 points". However, the thread will be locked and the judge will no longer validate any posts, so effectively the game is in eternal stasis.

We'll also make a non official gentlemanly agreement that, although the game is still in progress, if anyone would be able to, then felix won because he was closest to winning at the point of paradox.

That's my proposal, which I think sinbad agrees with, so if no other arisements arise, lets begin discussion of the rules for the third game

[Neddie]

Ok, talking about game 2.

I was trying to count up the scores and I reached paradox. I made a post, and sinbad posted while the post was being made, causing that post to be delayed in validation. Then I made another post, and sinbad validated that post without validating the other one, so there is no way I can possibly temporally recreate the record of the game while still following the rule "After a Player posts, a Judge must indicate if the Post has been accepted or rejected before that player's posts may be concidered valid again", and since we have no method of dealing with judge error, effectively the game has reached a paradoxical state where, within the rules, there is nothing we can do the resume it.

Therefore, I propose we leave the game active indefinitely so as not to break the rule "The game is over when a player reaches 100 points". However, the thread will be locked and the judge will no longer validate any posts, so effectively the game is in eternal stasis.

We'll also make a non official gentlemanly agreement that, although the game is still in progress, if anyone would be able to, then felix won because he was closest to winning at the point of paradox.

That's my proposal, which I think sinbad agrees with, so if no other arisements arise, lets begin discussion of the rules for the third game

I think we need some rules about paradox and judge error, and possibly pacing. I could see limitation on judge posts to once an hour maximum, rather than this frantic "every few minutes" deal.

[SwiftSpear]

Suggested Rules for Round 3:

Terms in Context:
Proposal: Any suggestion for a rule
Motion: A proposal to add a New Rule or amend or delete a current rule. A passed motion is a rule
Static Rules: Rules that cannot be changed within a round
Immutable Rules: Rules that cannot be changed until they are made mutable
Mutable Rules: Rules that can be modified or deleted by a motion
Transmogrify: To amend a rule so that it changes from Immutable to Mutable or from Mutable to Immutable.
Paradox: A state in the game where the rules do not allow a player to effectively continue playing the game.

Static Rules:

• 001 - Static Rules cannot be changed, deleted or amended (this includes no transmorgification)
• 002 - All posts must follow the general forum rules and the laws of Canada.
• 003 - All new Rules are Mutable
• 004 - A Immutable rule can only be amended by transmogrifying it to a mutable rule by a separate motion.
• 005 - Spring moderators have the right to delete any post at any time that is not in accordance with the static rules. Spring moderators ceed no moderation rights for the progression of the game

Immutable Rules:

• 100 - In the case of paradox, and ONLY in the case of paradox, which shall be decided by The Judge/judges and the 5 most active players, The Judge/judges may change the rules at thier discression until the paradox is no long in effect
• 101 - SwiftSpear is a Judge
• 102 - All Registered Spring Forum members who are not Judges are Players
• 103 - Any post containing a suggestion for a motion is a proposal
• 104 - Any proposal may be nominated by any player who did not make said proposal
• 105 - A proposal is valid when: It contains at least 5 words, has fewer than 10 grammatical and spelling mistakes (all of which must be correctable by the judge) and does not conflict with existing rules. The judges' opinion as to the validity of a post is final.
• 106 - The first proposal that is valid and has been nominated at least once, the judge will make that proposal a motion and initiate a vote
• 107 - If a vote is initiated, all proposals are dead, all nominations are dead, old nominations must be created new at the end of the vote, new nominations may not be issued until the vote is complete
• 108 - In order for a motion to pass, 4 votes must be issued in approval of said motion
• 109 - In order for a motion to fail, either 4 votes must be issued in opposition of said motion, or the either the judge, or the proposing player may withdraw the motion after 12 hours have past in deadlock
• 110 - The judge may veto the appointment of any new judge
• 111 - The judge may veto the removal of any judge
• 112 - All new rules are mutable

Mutable Rules:

• 201 - Every vote in which a player is on the victor's side (the vote the player issued was the same as the winning vote) that player shall receive 10 points
• 202 - While no player has 100 points or greater the game will continue
• 203 - The player who has been on the victor's side the highest number of times at the end of the game is the winner
• 204 - The game will end when there is no rule requiring it's continuation

Anything I've missed?

Summary: Anyone can make a proposal for a new rule, if a proposal is nominated the judge will start a vote, at the vote all old proposals are killed, if the vote is accepted the proposal is a mutable rule, if it fails we go back to proposal time and new proposals can be made. If you vote on the winning side you get 10 points, and the first player to 100 points wins the game (keep in mind, the summary only holds true until the rules have changed)