P.U.R.E. 0.55

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 15 Dec 2007, 16:07

crop that image.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 15 Dec 2007, 16:10

Fanger wrote:hrm...

purify, Expand, reclaim, and Exterminate

Hrmm..

yeah I see wut he did there also.. his PERE mod

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 15 Dec 2007, 17:38

Yes, that was a rather big "oops". I made that whole painting in about 20 minutes tho, just wasn't thinking about it until waaaaay too late, since I had to get the video up and stuff. Oh well.

Thus far, I can see that quite a few folks have taken a look... other than the sight distances... any other major issues with gameplay? I spent maybe 2 hours yesterday at home, trying to do last-second QA and fixing a number of things that I'd put on the "easy-but-not-until-nearly-done" phase of development... so if you see any problems with units (er, other than the Airtransport, which I know is borked)... I'd like to hear about it.

@KDR: The sight distances were set up that way to duplicate one of the aspects of OTA and the mods that worked fairly well, actually. Check out how really, truly blind most units are in BA, etc.

Having the sight distance lower than the range of the units means that gathering intelligence and using radar (and jammers, if I ever get the human side rolling) is a really big part of play. Removing that element would pretty much make radar useless, and it's a massive performance hog, as well- a unit with the same sight distance as the longer-ranged stuff, like the Tank, would have a radius of 1100... waaaay bigger than anything else in Spring ATM.

That's a lot of CPU power, and the game would also play very differently, because radar inaccuracy wouldn't be as much of a factor- I'd probably have to make all weapons slightly inaccurate to compensate and keep gameplay from becoming too heavily balanced towards long-range guns. I'll test it out, and see how bad the tradeoff is, but I'm probably going to leave well enough alone on that issue, tbh.

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 15 Dec 2007, 18:15

The walking artillery with the big blue shell doesn't aim properly, partially because the turret (that turns on the y) is not flat on the xz plane, and partially (I think, haven't actually checked) because you use a dummy weapon and emit-sfx the main one.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 15 Dec 2007, 18:17

Argh wrote: Having the sight distance lower than the range of the units means that gathering intelligence and using radar (and jammers, if I ever get the human side rolling) is a really big part of play. Removing that element would pretty much make radar useless, and it's a massive performance hog, as well- a unit with the same sight distance as the longer-ranged stuff, like the Tank, would have a radius of 1100... waaaay bigger than anything else in Spring ATM.

That's a lot of CPU power, and the game would also play very differently, because radar inaccuracy wouldn't be as much of a factor- I'd probably have to make all weapons slightly inaccurate to compensate and keep gameplay from becoming too heavily balanced towards long-range guns. I'll test it out, and see how bad the tradeoff is, but I'm probably going to leave well enough alone on that issue, tbh.

LOL

Code: Select all

//file defining some parameters for sensors
[Sensors]
{
	[Los]
	{
		//MipLevel defines the resolution for LOS calculation, higer MipLevel means lower resolution.
		//An increase by one in MipLevel means half the resolution of the LOS map in both x and y direction.
		//One miplevel higher leads to less CPU usage for same sightdistance and twice the sightrange possible.
		LosMipLevel=2;
		AirLosMipLevel=2;
		
		//LosMul=1;	//multiply all units los with this, don't use
		//AirLosMul=1;	//multiply all units airlos with this, don't use
	}
}

*edit* looking now btw.

DZHIBRISH · Post by **DZHIBRISH** » 15 Dec 2007, 18:35

A few suggestions.
Make energy metal vakues normal not 10^10 figures.
Takes a lot of time to build a lab.
There is 1 unit,a fast one that is very powerfull versus nearly anything,that sux(forgot its name but it feels like its intended so you probably know which one i mean and im writing this to tell you most wont like a balane where you have such units).

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 15 Dec 2007, 18:50

Ok, tried it out. I am sure the const errors are because I am not using the latest build. MEH that isn't a big deal.

I thought it was ok and will give it a shot with a friend some time after I move(but that will be a bit). Anyway, Not too fond of the sounds and effects, they were very much like a fantasy game's effects. The impact sounds need a bit more oomph right now they are very soft and lack strength.

Otherwise my only real gripe is that knight should have been left out. Also where are the rest of gmn's walkers?

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 15 Dec 2007, 19:06

There is a problem... zoom out a bit and try to tell the units apart. Some are clear, but a lot aren't.

AF · Post by AF » 15 Dec 2007, 20:13

In FPS mode a lot of units can be moved around despite not actually having usable weapons, such as the radar tank

Peet · Post by **Peet** » 15 Dec 2007, 20:18

AF wrote:In FPS mode a lot of units can be moved around despite not actually having usable weapons, such as the radar tank

Not really anything that can be done about that...besides, I've always wanted to be able to fps weaponless units

Tim-the-maniac · Post by **Tim-the-maniac** » 15 Dec 2007, 20:47

The start is very slow, I think the lab should be alot faster to build. Is it designed to work with 1k start res? It seems like something higher would suit better (tried setting it at 5k but it gets capped to 1k ingame).

I agree with KDR about the los being too low, atleast give the radar thing mega los or something..?
Also the fast unit which shoots the fireball and heals really fast (assault shell?) seems OP, fast and kills most stuff in 1 shot.

The overall style of the units and effects is very cool tho :]

AF · Post by AF » 15 Dec 2007, 21:02

I thought you could disable fps via lua gadgets?

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 15 Dec 2007, 21:32

The walking artillery with the big blue shell doesn't aim properly, partially because the turret (that turns on the y) is not flat on the xz plane, and partially (I think, haven't actually checked) because you use a dummy weapon and emit-sfx the main one.

No, it aims just fine (in SVN, not necessarily in 0.75b2!), it's just slightly inaccurate, which added to the groundbounce makes for some strange behaviors. Try making a pack of 3+ and see how they do- they're pretty powerful.

The start is very slow, I think the lab should be alot faster to build.

I'll have to re-check, but IIRC, the time to build is actually less than the time it takes to put up a plant in BA, etc. It's just that other buildings take much less time comparatively. I think that lowering the time would make the start of a game, and the choice of when/ where to place the first plant a lot less crucial, so I'm somewhat leery of changing that, tbh.

There is a problem... zoom out a bit and try to tell the units apart. Some are clear, but a lot aren't.

Should I make unique icons for every unit? I wanted to keep the number of icons low, but meh, it's easy enough to add new icons.

Ok, tried it out. I am sure the const errors are because I am not using the latest build. MEH that isn't a big deal.

No, Smoth, that's actually a giant big deal. You're not really seeing the game, if you play it in 0.75b2. You're missing huge chunks of how gameplay actually works, due to all of the new features in the next build of Spring.

Some of which are literally last-second things, like using the new soundcode patch by Lurker, but there are things, like KDR_11's rocket patches, cegspawn tricks, bouncing projectiles, the new armored flank code... and many other things that you're just plain missing out on by using the older Spring build. I've always believed in building to meet future features, not playing catchup, so you're really not seeing or evaluating the game properly if you're viewing it in 0.75b2.

As for the sounds and FX... the sounds are mainly from NB, that's not going to be very easy to address right now. The FX... meh, whatever. When you see it in a SVN build, you'll understand why I'm just shrugging- you're not really seeing what it looks like.

my only real gripe is that knight should have been left out

The knight is quite easily countered, actually, and I think it was a good concept from NB, so it was kept. I just wish I'd had time to build an entirely new model- I tried several things, but wasn't entirely happy with them, so I just reskinned it.

Specifically on counters... AssaultTanks will freeze them, and Heavy Shells will annihilate them, quite cost-effectively, among other things. They just seem really OP at first. That said, I might have left them a little too hard to kill after making everything obey the new armor code (again, you're missing a great deal if you're not using a SVN build) so I'll have to check their balance again. My final testing run with DRB last weekend showed mainly that I needed to nerf the RocketTanks- they were the most dangerous units for their costs, so I lowered their refire rate.

Also where are the rest of gmn's walkers?

I wasn't sent the giant uber-mecha meshes. And, tbh, while they're really neato, their style would be more in keeping with the Resistance than with the Overmind.

Lastly, on the issue of sight distances, everybody has always stated that this is a n^2 issue, computationally. I've dropped the mip level one power-of-two, which I think is the maximum that still obtains good results re: the heightmap / blocking map, but I'll take another look and evaluate this s'more. If it's a minor CPU hit, then OK, but I suspect that even a 150% growth in radius will be too heavy for real games with large numbers of units built, based on early tests with NanoBlobs when I gave the Wolf the maximum distance (that's 1024, IIRC). I cheated whereever possible- buildings, for example, are practically blind... but it still matters.

Make energy metal values normal, not 10^10 figures.

Not happening. I hate OTA's starting values for such things, and I used a completely different system for determining base costs. Units have a very strict "tier" cost system, and are balanced according to what tier they're in. Keeps things simpler, in terms of "how long to build X", and makes balance about a unit's true power, instead of being a mushy mess where power and cost are both being refactored. I'd rather nerf / buff than change a cost, pretty much.

[EDIT] Fixed the image, by cropping for now. Easy enough to fix, when I'm back home again on Monday...

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 15 Dec 2007, 22:35

The problem is that your starting metal is enough for two mexes. In fact you'll definitely stall if you don't use the exact perfect build order (1xE, 3xMex, factory, IIRC) and even then you'll spend a minute staring at your lab.

As for the tiny LOS, what that means is that basically everyone shoots at radar blips andwhose blip moves over his units first loses.

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 15 Dec 2007, 22:57

There are a few units which have broken aim animations. The problem isn't the script, it's the unit design. They use their body for the pitch and the torso for the heading. This doesn't work. It has to turn around the y-axis first and then the x-axis.

Well it's nothing game breaking but you should consider it for future models.

Argh · Post by **Argh** » 15 Dec 2007, 23:14

The problem is that your starting metal is enough for two mexes. In fact you'll definitely stall if you don't use the exact perfect build order (1xE, 3xMex, factory, IIRC) and even then you'll spend a minute staring at your lab.

Well, yes... you need a metal income of around 33 and a E income from one Fusion + Commander to build a lab without stalling. That's on purpose. The build order actually depends on the map- on maps where the initial cluster of 3 spots is loose, you can skip the Fusion until after you've built the Miners, because the Overmind Commander can make enough E to build it back up between Miners. Building the Fusion as the very first thing is usually a mistake.

I'll re-adjust the timing on getting a factory up and make it faster, but I'm pretty sure it will cause more problems than it solves. A faster initial start just means that getting the first economy up is a lot less important... and everything I've seen, after spending some time in serious study of successful games, indicates that that's a mistake. Every successful RTS has a fairly lengthy evolution, before play begins in earnest, and a certain period where no offensive moves are possible. I think this is something that lets players get comfortable and gives them a cushion against early timing errors, so I'm a little worried that dropping this too much will relegate the game to strictly hardcore skill levels- there are lots of other things already in the game that qualify, in terms of micro.

As for the tiny LOS, what that means is that basically everyone shoots at radar blips and whose blip moves over his units first loses.

It's a little more complex than that.

There are some units that don't really care about radar coverage much, because it doesn't massively change their accuracy, and the Assault Shell is Stealth, which is one of the reasons why it's so dangerous. I designed the game to make people actively utilize radar, though- I think it's completely stupid to make a game about futuristic warfare, then not have radar be a big deal.

What I could do, though, since it looks like I'm committing myself to at least one more run through the code on Monday, is that I could make the radar vehicles and turrets emit a ping and make a sound, so that players know where the radar sites are, and can counter them directly. That'd help make this a bit more like the real world. But overall, this was what I wanted- a game where maintaining radar coverage, and countering it, was a really big part of gameplay.

I may put in some sort of active jammer on the Overmind's list, although I was mainly going to play that game with the Resistance. I just can't guarantee any serious time spent on a model for it, though, I have too much IRL stuff to take care of now.

There are a few units which have broken aim animations. The problem isn't the script, it's the unit design.

The only one that's like that is the Artillery Shell, unless you've seen something I haven't. It's just the way that the model was built, and I debated screwing around with GMN's concept, which I personally thought was pretty clever, but eventually decided not to. I think some of it may be the TryTarget code in Spring not taking MyGravity into account properly for ballistic weapons, too, now that I've taken another look. I assume you're looking at this in SVN builds, not 0.75b2? Kind've important, aiming code has changed a lot and behaves rather differently now.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 15 Dec 2007, 23:22

I don't mind radar being used much but it's not nice in combat since it's inaccurate. Real radars pretty much guarantee hits unless countermeasures are used, here it makes most low AOE units hit almost never, if you try to scout ahead your scouts get torn up quickly (since shots don't miss them) and after that it's back to radar blip shooting. I have no idea what you're supposed to use as spotters, shooting at radar blips is pretty much stupid since you don't hit crap that way.

As for recharging E between mines, I want to see that. I don't think I can make even one mine without stalling if I don't build the reactor first.

Guessmyname · Post by **Guessmyname** » 15 Dec 2007, 23:22

I can send those other walkers if you want. I've even got a part-skinned one you might want a look at. It's got a number of weapon configurations to mess around with (I felt like recreating mechcommander one morning, but that fell flat when I remembered I had no clue how to use Upspring...)

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 15 Dec 2007, 23:34

Argh wrote:a unit with the same sight distance as the longer-ranged stuff, like the Tank, would have a radius of 1100... waaaay bigger than anything else in Spring ATM.

This is just not so.. EE has had a LOS on every unit of 650 since its creation, and on the scout units IIRC I have LOS of 900-1100 as well.. and for the naval units in the latest version of EE I believe I was going to double their LOS so they could see what they were shooting at more often..

1100 is not wai bigger.. just larger..

rattle · Post by **rattle** » 16 Dec 2007, 00:29

I ran it on an SVN build. The rocket hovercraft is also affected, just have it shoot a target pretty close to it. Well, it can be fixed pretty easily by not having it pitch at all but having the launcher preposed.

Yeah the artillery bot looks funky when it tries to aim at targets after turning the the torso >90├é┬░.

Spring RTS Engine

P.U.R.E. 0.55