ban everyone
do everything
im lovin' it
Forum Rules
Moderator: Moderators
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Fair enough.Warlord Zsinj wrote:I was more bothered by the fact that after the complaint he still didn't remove the offending unit, Swiftspear, despite being specifically asked too.
I was bothered by the fact that a content author was restricting content use based on whether he liked the person asking to use the content or not, and attempting to use permissions as a bargaining chip try to force another modder to work on a project against their desire. It bothers me that stuff like that is seen acceptable for content that is made and distributed for free.
That probably didn't bother you very much at all though, but the problem is, being bothered by something does not make it morally wrong.
To be clear, I'm just expressing my opinion, what I'm really fishing for here is that people start thinking pro-actively and objectively. Tired believes what he did was not wrong, what I really want is people analyzing that concept, rather than holding the position that tired is wrong/an asshole because they disagree with what he believes.
If the issue at heart here for you is "Is Tired a jerk or not?" Go away, you're just a flamer and you're not needed here. If the issue is "Was Tired wrong or not?" Argue, produce evidence, give examples, prove your point, just stop obfuscating the issue back to a question of Tired's character. Even if Tired is the biggest asshole on the planet, at the end of the day, if he's right he's right, and if he's wrong he's wrong. His character doesn't effect the righteousness of any given argument he has made, and many of his arguments were very well worded and expressed, they were ignored because people were more content to flame him than consider the reality of the situation. Frankly, that's why Tired is not banned, and that's why I have very few words of defense for those calling out against him.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Opinions have nothing to do with it, not that you as a moderator should really be indicating preference for any side, merely enforcing the rules (which have been blatantly flouted).
The fact of the matter is that TRO can do whatever the hell he likes with his work, because it is his. He can decide he doesn't want to give the rights to his content because another person smells funny, or he doesn't like the shape of his upper molars. It's his prerogative, because it's his work. If Tired doesn't like that, well, tough. He can go make his own flying saucer, for chrissakes.
Anyway, I'm sorry I got involved in this nonsense, but suffice to say, if Mr.T was involved, there'd be some whooped ass all over the place.
The fact of the matter is that TRO can do whatever the hell he likes with his work, because it is his. He can decide he doesn't want to give the rights to his content because another person smells funny, or he doesn't like the shape of his upper molars. It's his prerogative, because it's his work. If Tired doesn't like that, well, tough. He can go make his own flying saucer, for chrissakes.
Anyway, I'm sorry I got involved in this nonsense, but suffice to say, if Mr.T was involved, there'd be some whooped ass all over the place.
What, so Tired behaving like a total jerk is of no concern to you? Isn't enforcing good behaviour the primary job of a moderator? That guy deliberately annoyed people, got banned, dodged the ban and continued his bad behaviour. That should be enough to get him banned. Oh, right, I'm jsut a flamer for suggesting a forum sanctioned troll may have acted wrong.
Hmm thanks for the info SwiftSpear. I don't know the ins and outs of this case but from what I can gather the content was released with no accompanying documentation stating copyright or licensing agreement.
With the area I'm used to, embedded content is considered to have the same licensing/copyright as what it is embedded with unless something states clearly that the licensing/copyright is different. Sometimes people don't copy the notices across correctly and then you normally go back to the source to find out what the terms are.
In this case it appears to me that the content was released 'free' and despite the desire of the author not to have it used by a specific person (which I have only heard via hearsay), the original released version of the model was 'free'. With software if this is the case then no one can go back and change their mind saying "I have released it but because I don't like you or your project I'm not going to let you have it". Once it's been released as free then that version is free and you cannot change it.
So can someone please clarify what license was the model released under originally? If it was released 'free' then I can't see what the problem is. If however it had terms stating that the model was only to be used with that mod and permission was required from the author before it could be used by other mods, then I would understand. However from what I have seen that doesn't appear to be the case.
With the area I'm used to, embedded content is considered to have the same licensing/copyright as what it is embedded with unless something states clearly that the licensing/copyright is different. Sometimes people don't copy the notices across correctly and then you normally go back to the source to find out what the terms are.
In this case it appears to me that the content was released 'free' and despite the desire of the author not to have it used by a specific person (which I have only heard via hearsay), the original released version of the model was 'free'. With software if this is the case then no one can go back and change their mind saying "I have released it but because I don't like you or your project I'm not going to let you have it". Once it's been released as free then that version is free and you cannot change it.
So can someone please clarify what license was the model released under originally? If it was released 'free' then I can't see what the problem is. If however it had terms stating that the model was only to be used with that mod and permission was required from the author before it could be used by other mods, then I would understand. However from what I have seen that doesn't appear to be the case.
Since when has acting like a jerk been a bannable offence? (It isn't) I think pretty much everyone arguing here has broken several of the forum rules. I'm pretty sure in this post you've broken the "respect the mods" and "don't backseat mod" rules ~_~KDR_11k wrote:What, so Tired behaving like a total jerk is of no concern to you? Isn't enforcing good behaviour the primary job of a moderator? That guy deliberately annoyed people, got banned, dodged the ban and continued his bad behaviour. That should be enough to get him banned. Oh, right, I'm jsut a flamer for suggesting a forum sanctioned troll may have acted wrong.
Rule 1: No flaming or insulting of other users, respect for all other users is mandatory and assumed regardless of postcount, amount contributed, or time active.tombom wrote:Since when has acting like a jerk been a bannable offence? (It isn't) I think pretty much everyone arguing here has broken several of the forum rules. I'm pretty sure in this post you've broken the "respect the mods" and "don't backseat mod" rules ~_~
Rule 2: Comments about content others have produced must be constructive. This is not to say that you must pretend you like every piece of content made by other community members, this is to say that comments like “it sucks” or “wow, that’s a shitty whatever” are inappropriate and will be considered as flaming.
Those are the specifics of his "acting like a jerk". IMO that behaviour is what caused the threads to go bad.
BTW, Ishach, can you please stop that?
The issue here is moderation and the forum rules. Tired should not be banned for stealing other peoples work as that does not take place on the forum and is thus not under its jurisdiction. What is under its jurisdiction is Tireds behaviour. Thus, the ONLY issue here is if Tired was acting like a jerk or not.SwiftSpear wrote:If the issue at heart here for you is "Is Tired a jerk or not?" Go away, you're just a flamer and you're not needed here. If the issue is "Was Tired wrong or not?" Argue, produce evidence, give examples, prove your point, just stop obfuscating the issue back to a question of Tired's character.
Discussing the morality of his behaviour off the forums is another issue entirely, and i dont see how that pertains to moderation in this case.
Either way, i dont believe Tired is the person to be having the argument of free content vs creators rights. We could indeed have that discussion and its a discussion well worth having (Morally, id be on the free content side, for what its worth) but AFAIC the whole discussion will be muddied by Tireds behaviour, and degrade in any case into flame and the silly off topic 'luls this is funny e-drama' stuff we've seen from Isach and Slek.
Last edited by Saktoth on 24 Sep 2007, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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CautionToTheWind
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 May 2006, 17:06
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clericvash
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 01:05
Any attempt at any moderator actually enforcing the rules end up in a post like this with people being idiotic and going completely off-topic, we either need the current moderators to do there job, or find new ones. This "community" is a joke.
Do you people get a kick about being so stupid and acting like 5 year olds?
From forum rules:
There are many people who post a lot of decent, funny and yes even useful posts, this forum will thrive if the trolls get banned.Andrej wrote:If they ban everyone that is trying to troll tired the forums will go empty.
My point made.Ishach wrote:f u c k
Do you people get a kick about being so stupid and acting like 5 year olds?
From forum rules:
You might as well get rid of that, all TA based mods have pretty much illegal content.8. Posting hacks or illegal/malicious files for download.
Congratulations! You've succesfully diverted the course fo the thread from wether Tired should stay banned to a prior topic! 10 out of 10 for manipulation! I hereby present you with this Grammy award and a fake oscar!
Swiftspear! In doing that you've managed to undermine sleksas point by making it appear that hes not quite sure what hes on about, and you've muddled the point of the thread up such that it carries far less weight than it used to. People are now unsure what exactly the point is and its having a fillibustering effect!
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Well tbh its a handful of people causing the vast majority of the crap here. They all support eachother and they rarely go all out alone as a result one can't give a definitive list without moving back beyond the current week.
And since the moderation rules seem to only apply to sets of actions that happen very quickly the vast majority of breakges are gotten away with. 3 strikes your out rule has a shelf life and the shelf life of a strike seems to be around 1-2 weeks. I can break the forum rules as much as I want as long as I space them out wide enough and hand over things to some other willing trollers so its not always me.
Thus I present:
How to troll spring forums and the people and get away with it!
Trolling threads
Method 1: Start by posting something that would generate lulz or an obvious attempt at derailment. Other trolls will pounce on this and the burden of responsibility is diluted. You derailed and messed up the thread but you are not to blame! Closer inspection will reveal your role but as said above, responsibility is shared between you and the people who took the bait.
If you see someone else doing this post a 4chan picture or join in then leave silently to troll another thread.
Method 2: Make posts that dont really mean anything but suggest something offensive to the thread starter. When the thread starter gets offended and goes on the defensive start to post less and other trolls will come to the rescue and attack the person. Remove yourself from the thread quickly and try not to be too provocative. The moderators tend to go after the victim for fighting back more than they do the attacker because the attacker faded away and other people attacked too, and as above that dilutes responsibility such that its deemed pointless to moderate.
Method 3: Derail a thread by not taking it seriously. People will see the thread and your casual joking attitude and assume the same thing of the first poster even if the first poster was deadly serious. The entire situation is diffused and the first posters reputation is dented.
Method 4: Despite what people say happenings in the forums spill over into the lobby and vice versa. The people who are loudest in the forums are usually found on the lobby doing similar things as above. Offend people in the lobby, then watch as they spew out on the forums. They will appear to be making unfounded judgements and unfairly discriminating you, attacking you, flaming you, trolling you.
Play the weak undefended little kid being pounced on by the angry mob and you'll majourly piss off a few people and therell be lots of fireworks.
Trolling People
method 1: Attack them then pull back as often as possible.
Make a low level attack on them and other people will join in if you do it often. Theyll be marked as vulnerable to trolling. If they defend themselves then you've struck a goldmine.
method 2: Barge into their field of expertise
Yes! Make a mod! Take lots of things and put them together and call it original work, then talk down on them in their own thread. Your posts will be dismissed out of hand but their replies will be memorable and they will be tarred. This can attract moderators and can also blossom into a full blown case of method 1 aswell as derailing their threads.
method 3: Start thread parodying their actions
Start a thread making fun of something they do or have done. If they defend themselves itll turn into a flamewar and people will join in and once again your no longer to blame. Otherwise if they dont enter the thread they'll be pissed off.
If people start to complain
Make out they're taking things too seriously. Label them paranoid or say they're trolling you. Theyll either be dismissed out of hand or seen as flamers.
We have ten or so people actively doing this and about 10 more who support these people knowingly and unknowingly. The latter ten could be solved using warnings combined with the examples set by disciplining the first 10. The first ten should be warned and disciplined when they trip up. 3 strikes should mean 3 strikes fullstop not 3 striks within the last 48 hours.
And a realization should dawn that lobby and forum are not mutually exclusive. When trollers get tired of the forums they switch to the lobby and vice versa. That way they aren't as noticeable and they get more lulz.
I suggest that all future bans be universal to the lobby and the forums. That mass smurfing where a single person has 5-10 accounts on at once should be against the rules. Rule breakers should be disciplined, treat the cause not the problem, just because I break a rule by making other people flame for me through a deliberate manipulation doesnt mean I should get away with it.
Swiftspear! In doing that you've managed to undermine sleksas point by making it appear that hes not quite sure what hes on about, and you've muddled the point of the thread up such that it carries far less weight than it used to. People are now unsure what exactly the point is and its having a fillibustering effect!
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Well tbh its a handful of people causing the vast majority of the crap here. They all support eachother and they rarely go all out alone as a result one can't give a definitive list without moving back beyond the current week.
And since the moderation rules seem to only apply to sets of actions that happen very quickly the vast majority of breakges are gotten away with. 3 strikes your out rule has a shelf life and the shelf life of a strike seems to be around 1-2 weeks. I can break the forum rules as much as I want as long as I space them out wide enough and hand over things to some other willing trollers so its not always me.
Thus I present:
How to troll spring forums and the people and get away with it!
Trolling threads
Method 1: Start by posting something that would generate lulz or an obvious attempt at derailment. Other trolls will pounce on this and the burden of responsibility is diluted. You derailed and messed up the thread but you are not to blame! Closer inspection will reveal your role but as said above, responsibility is shared between you and the people who took the bait.
If you see someone else doing this post a 4chan picture or join in then leave silently to troll another thread.
Method 2: Make posts that dont really mean anything but suggest something offensive to the thread starter. When the thread starter gets offended and goes on the defensive start to post less and other trolls will come to the rescue and attack the person. Remove yourself from the thread quickly and try not to be too provocative. The moderators tend to go after the victim for fighting back more than they do the attacker because the attacker faded away and other people attacked too, and as above that dilutes responsibility such that its deemed pointless to moderate.
Method 3: Derail a thread by not taking it seriously. People will see the thread and your casual joking attitude and assume the same thing of the first poster even if the first poster was deadly serious. The entire situation is diffused and the first posters reputation is dented.
Method 4: Despite what people say happenings in the forums spill over into the lobby and vice versa. The people who are loudest in the forums are usually found on the lobby doing similar things as above. Offend people in the lobby, then watch as they spew out on the forums. They will appear to be making unfounded judgements and unfairly discriminating you, attacking you, flaming you, trolling you.
Play the weak undefended little kid being pounced on by the angry mob and you'll majourly piss off a few people and therell be lots of fireworks.
Trolling People
method 1: Attack them then pull back as often as possible.
Make a low level attack on them and other people will join in if you do it often. Theyll be marked as vulnerable to trolling. If they defend themselves then you've struck a goldmine.
method 2: Barge into their field of expertise
Yes! Make a mod! Take lots of things and put them together and call it original work, then talk down on them in their own thread. Your posts will be dismissed out of hand but their replies will be memorable and they will be tarred. This can attract moderators and can also blossom into a full blown case of method 1 aswell as derailing their threads.
method 3: Start thread parodying their actions
Start a thread making fun of something they do or have done. If they defend themselves itll turn into a flamewar and people will join in and once again your no longer to blame. Otherwise if they dont enter the thread they'll be pissed off.
If people start to complain
Make out they're taking things too seriously. Label them paranoid or say they're trolling you. Theyll either be dismissed out of hand or seen as flamers.
We have ten or so people actively doing this and about 10 more who support these people knowingly and unknowingly. The latter ten could be solved using warnings combined with the examples set by disciplining the first 10. The first ten should be warned and disciplined when they trip up. 3 strikes should mean 3 strikes fullstop not 3 striks within the last 48 hours.
And a realization should dawn that lobby and forum are not mutually exclusive. When trollers get tired of the forums they switch to the lobby and vice versa. That way they aren't as noticeable and they get more lulz.
I suggest that all future bans be universal to the lobby and the forums. That mass smurfing where a single person has 5-10 accounts on at once should be against the rules. Rule breakers should be disciplined, treat the cause not the problem, just because I break a rule by making other people flame for me through a deliberate manipulation doesnt mean I should get away with it.
AF's cracked the Da Vinci code! =D
I will submit, however, that should you discipline 10 people, thereby silencing another 10, then you'll have cleaned out 80% of the posters in the forums (method 3).
I will also note that you, AF, would be particularly susceptible to any permanent banning policies as you're a complete fish, and are more subject to rants than even the average neurotic teenager (PA method 1).
On a slightly more serious note, all of these "they," "thems" and "some peoples" are terrifically vague - as tombom starts to point out, this is a terrible practice for getting your point across, and feeds a paranoid sense of justice that CERTAIN PEOPLE tend to be easy prey of. I congratulate you on accomplishing the very thing your post condemns in the very post condemning it. =D
Cleric, my "ban," such as it was, from the forums was never officially declared to me (the subject of the ban), and is therefore hard to deem as official (or even a ban on the forums). SwiftSpear, perpetrator of the ban, has claimed that he wasn't delivering a punishment to me, but rather trying to derail what he saw as a flamewar in progress by removing the minimal number of people to accomplish the task - more a utilitarian decision than a deontological one. He also stated that he acted as such with full expectation that I'd get around it, with the hope that I'd then sneak about and avoid publicity, thereby not further "demonizing" myself. Obviously, I'm not the type to sneak. =)
In further news, TRO has delivered a belated OK to use of the Zenith in TA on the condition that due credit is given for the work (always was when people asked, but I hadn't made a readme yet due to TA's beta status - UF's Comments for the mod now have an incomplete credits list that includes his work), and encourages complete porting of the Talon faction in its entirety to Spring by someone or group who's played with them in TA enough to understand their functions. If anyone feels like helping out here, I'm up for it. =)
Nuts to hypocrites.
I will submit, however, that should you discipline 10 people, thereby silencing another 10, then you'll have cleaned out 80% of the posters in the forums (method 3).
I will also note that you, AF, would be particularly susceptible to any permanent banning policies as you're a complete fish, and are more subject to rants than even the average neurotic teenager (PA method 1).
On a slightly more serious note, all of these "they," "thems" and "some peoples" are terrifically vague - as tombom starts to point out, this is a terrible practice for getting your point across, and feeds a paranoid sense of justice that CERTAIN PEOPLE tend to be easy prey of. I congratulate you on accomplishing the very thing your post condemns in the very post condemning it. =D
Cleric, my "ban," such as it was, from the forums was never officially declared to me (the subject of the ban), and is therefore hard to deem as official (or even a ban on the forums). SwiftSpear, perpetrator of the ban, has claimed that he wasn't delivering a punishment to me, but rather trying to derail what he saw as a flamewar in progress by removing the minimal number of people to accomplish the task - more a utilitarian decision than a deontological one. He also stated that he acted as such with full expectation that I'd get around it, with the hope that I'd then sneak about and avoid publicity, thereby not further "demonizing" myself. Obviously, I'm not the type to sneak. =)
In further news, TRO has delivered a belated OK to use of the Zenith in TA on the condition that due credit is given for the work (always was when people asked, but I hadn't made a readme yet due to TA's beta status - UF's Comments for the mod now have an incomplete credits list that includes his work), and encourages complete porting of the Talon faction in its entirety to Spring by someone or group who's played with them in TA enough to understand their functions. If anyone feels like helping out here, I'm up for it. =)
Nuts to hypocrites.