Vile.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 09 Jul 2007, 20:09

I agree, if you sign up to the military, you should expect to be put into a combat situation, but by the same token, you don't expect to have your life put in danger/wasted while fighting for... well what are they fighting for? I don't think anyone knows really.
It's easy to say they should stay there and see it through to the end (if there even is one) when it's not your own life on the line and you're sat behind a pc in your nice safe house.

Millions died in world war 2 fighting off the nazi's, there was a point to that, but fighting in Iraq so George can have more oil to run his gas guzzling truck...I don't think so.

The truth is, Iraq or Afghanistan are probably never going to be subdued, and the sooner George and co realise this, swallow their pride and send our boys home the better.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 09 Jul 2007, 20:10

Eh, run ur boi doesn't work in this situation.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 09 Jul 2007, 20:17

What the media doesn't mention is that it's a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation. Leave Iraq, and the insurgents will take over, and it'll become a theocracy or an Iranian vassal or something. Stay over there, and more Americans (and Britishers et al) die, more contractors get richer, etc.

The thing that shifts the balance? Us. I don't want my countrymen to die, even if it means more instability. We're already fucked in the "breeding terrorism" department; why sacrifice more people?

Just pull out and let Iraq rot. Let the servicemen come home, and let the defense contractors find another source of income.

Zpock · Post by **Zpock** » 09 Jul 2007, 22:04

Yeah just leave and let those suckers do whatever they want, go for an islamic state like Iran or whatever. If they become a real problem just nuke the place, problem solved.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 10 Jul 2007, 00:57

Dragon45 wrote:What the media doesn't mention is that it's a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation. Leave Iraq, and the insurgents will take over, and it'll become a theocracy or an Iranian vassal or something. Stay over there, and more Americans (and Britishers et al) die, more contractors get richer, etc.

The thing that shifts the balance? Us. I don't want my countrymen to die, even if it means more instability. We're already fucked in the "breeding terrorism" department; why sacrifice more people?

Just pull out and let Iraq rot. Let the servicemen come home, and let the defense contractors find another source of income.

It's not that grim. Train new Iraqi/Afghanistan's forces to do their own combat and policing and that takes pressure off the foreign troops there, allowing us to bring some of them home, and allowing the nation a little more self sovereignty. There are some great men involved in politics and policing in those nations now, we need to give those people a chance to prove that a difference can be made and peace can be reached.

Bringing the troops home should definitely be a goal, but it should be seen as a conditional, not something that is acceptable to do as soon as possible. The thing is... If they are being shot at and killed, they are fighting something, so it's pretty obvious they are still needed where they are.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 10 Jul 2007, 09:00

I believe the situation in Iraq will calm down within the next 10-15 years but not earlier. The only choice that will not lead to major chaos in the area is to sit it out. Pulling back now would cause a huge chaos and leave the area worse off than it was before. But that was predictable from the start if you just look at any previous military actions of a similar kind (e.g. Bosnia). The only way to not get stuck in Iraq like this was to not attack it.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 10 Jul 2007, 15:02

Not really the right forum to talk politics, but here goes:

1) invading Iraq was not the only failure of the Bush administration. The post-invasion was poorly handled, they had numerous advisors telling them that they needed a larger force to maintain order. The fact that the PNAC-wing of the Republican party is still in charge of the USA is the most absurd miscarriage of democracy in the history of the USA.

2) the Iraqi constitution of treating Iraq as a single country (rather than mostly-independant states with a laissez-fair central government) is suicidal.

3) Americans can't bring peace to Iraq as long as they're unwanted. Put it to the Iraqis - go when asked, come when asked, etc. If the Iraqis say leave, they leave. If all-out civil war erupts (or the Iranians invade) and the Iraqis ask for help, come.

AF · Post by AF » 10 Jul 2007, 15:25

Iraq can make the US leave by asking them to do so, but the iraqi government wants the US there because without them they'd be overthrown and an islamic state imposed.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 10 Jul 2007, 16:52

Iraq's government only has power through the US; of course they want us. But Iraq's people want us out, and I think we should oblige them, at least partially.

We need to make it seem less like an occupation.

AF · Post by AF » 10 Jul 2007, 17:33

Not everyone in iraq wants us out, indeed the only iraqi people who openly want us ou are those who then blow themselves up at US checkpoints, and that isnt always because of those reasons, some do it because of infighting within the iraqi factions, and some because they want to overthrow the iraqi government. Indeed there numerous evidence suggesting Iran si inciting more insurgents and aiding in attacks itself.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 10 Jul 2007, 18:10

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17687430/

As of March this year:

-51% of Iraqis approve of attacks on coalition troops
-4 out of 5 Iraqis oppose the presense of US troops
-1 in 3 want us to leave immediately

In general, I think they want us out. They don't want us to leave immediately, and I agree that leaving immediately would be bad, but I think we need to start pulling out. We're just hated too much.

Oh, and also:

http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

In early 2006, 72% of American troops serving in Iraq said we should pull out within the year. I think they can understand the situation there better than we can.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 10 Jul 2007, 18:41

Their pride was hurt and they feel like their country is being held like France in WW2 but it's the only way to prevent the country from falling into chaos, it'll take a long time before the country is in a position to control itself and before it's therte the US cannot pull out.

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