Absolute Annihilation 2.11

[Pxtl]

I disagree. An attack is usually many low hp combat units vs a few high hp defense units. The attacking units are usually picked off one or a small few at a time. Consider the case of 6 peewees attacking a sentinel. If the attacker retreats after 50% damage, he most likely has close to 3 peewees dead and most of the rest with full HP. If the defense takes 50% damage, then they have lost no units and your attack becomes non-damaging after a very short period of time.

If we're talking about that phase of game, you can be damn sure that a conmech, if not the comm itself, is getting his ass over there to fix that HLT either way, so autorepair is moot point.

[Forboding Angel]

At some point I wander if AA has taken advantage too much of the features for spring that wern't specifically designed for OTA mods.

Bottom line. Fix AA's porcfesting and I will happily start playing it again.

If you can't say that porcers eventually lose no matter what, in your mod, then that indicates to me that there could be some glaring issues.

I don't really give a crap about autoheal on units. If autoheal was removed from all buildings (except maybe the basic mexes?) that would be a MASSIVE step towards getting rid of the porcupine in AA.

Here is an idea, not sure how good it is...

Maybe you could remove some of the defencive structures from AA? Leave say llt, hlt, guardian/punisher,annihilator/doomsday. As far as anti air buildings, how about leaving: defender/pulverizer, flakker/copperhead. After that, rebalance aircraft cost, health, and buildtime to match that antiair scheme. Then tweak land to fit within that defensive scheme as well.

I think the above has some merit, and could provide a quite a bit more stable/smooth/fun gameplay.

Just food for thought...

[Egarwaen]

Bottom line. Fix AA's porcfesting and I will happily start playing it again.

AA's only a porcfest when you don't know how to effectively use offensive units or play on SpeedMetal or GreenFields. Games between even moderately experienced players never degenerate into porcfests.

(In case you missed it, Caydr did some serious rebalancing of the defences a few versions back, which, IIRC, made the HLT and Viper much less effective.)

You still haven't watched the Hellspawn V Jazz replay, have you?

[Cabbage]

FA, you are wrong, 100% wrong - a game with half decent players simply dosen't turn into a porc fest (on a reasonable map ofc)

Edit: Why should the mod completely change just to tempt you into playing it?

[Kixxe]

Edit: Why should the mod completely change just to tempt you into playing it?

Cuz maybe he's right? :O

[Egarwaen]

Cuz maybe he's right? :O

About what? The AA's not a porcfest right now. A bunch of posters have provided evidence showing this, but Forboding just keeps pulling "porcfest" out of his ass whenever he's got some random change he thinks will improve/ruin the mod.

Provided you are playing against a player of at least moderate skill who is not significantly worse than you are, porcing in AA never works. In fact, it's so poor a strategy that high-skill games rarely see more than a handful of defensive structures bigger than an HLT.

If Forboding thinks porcing is a viable strategy, he should try using it to beat one of the best players. Anyone want to volunteer to run this test?

[BigSteve]

+1 (thats for this post and every other post hes made in the last 5 -6 pages)

[Forboding Angel]

Cuz maybe he's right? :O

About what? The AA's not a porcfest right now. A bunch of posters have provided evidence showing this, but Forboding just keeps pulling "porcfest" out of his ass whenever he's got some random change he thinks will improve/ruin the mod.

Provided you are playing against a player of at least moderate skill who is not significantly worse than you are, porcing in AA never works. In fact, it's so poor a strategy that high-skill games rarely see more than a handful of defensive structures bigger than an HLT.

If Forboding thinks porcing is a viable strategy, he should try using it to beat one of the best players. Anyone want to volunteer to run this test?

Since, you're the one talking the most crap, maybe it should be you.

AA Gampleay goes like this:

Beginning of game, send scouts, try to get lucky.
Put up defences while pumping out lv1's
lv1's meet in the center, generally slaughter each other assuming that they are near sized.
Expand to middle ground, trench warfare ensues until lv2 is reached.
Lv2's break defences, but don't gain significant ground.
Get hit by lv2 force, same story, or the force gets slaughtered.
Send more lv2's, they get pwned by the 3 annihilators that your enemy owns.
Try a different tactic (Arty). Moderate success
Tech up to lv2 vehicles, build mass golis, wide margin of success, but do to the amount of defences, still no significant ground gained.
Get hit by BB, build BB in 30 seconds with tons of helpers. BB war ensues, nothing of note gained.
Get hit by lv3, beat it back, build your own level 3, at some point someone breaks through and wins.

AA games ALWAYS turn out one of 2 ways. OMGWTFPWNing your opponent, or trench warfare, because your opponent is good.

Meh fuckit, there is absolutely no hope for this mod anymore.

BTW cabbage, what about those games that you I and whoever else played (usually drex). Either we totally pwned the opponents, or it turned into trench warfare (when I got sick of the trench warfae is when I started just AK farming, because AK farming is fun, trench warfare? Not so much).

[Pxtl]

BTW cabbage, what about those games that you I and whoever else played (usually drex). Either we totally pwned the opponents, or it turned into trench warfare (when I got sick of the trench warfae is when I started just AK farming, because AK farming is fun, trench warfare? Not so much).

I've lost a lot of games trying to porc and found that on a wide-open map with good players and a low playercount, controlling the mexxes you need to dominate with turrets is impossible. In those cases, there is usually one forward outpost with an HLT or something, but mostly Rocko-based action until L2 is hit - and quite often a hefty swarm of rockos can decimate the enemy player if they hit a part of the defensive line in a location far from the Comm - hell, if your energy supply isnt surplussing hard enough and you're not quick enough shutting down the production, a solid swarm of rockos can overwhelm the comm, punching a big hole in the defense. I've seen similar scenarios happen many times.

Stop playing 4v4 games on Altored Divide. Try playing on Moon, Comet Catcher, or even Crossing 4, with only 3 players per team _tops_. At that point your front lines become too long to adequately defend with L1 turrets, so the L1 unit action becomes extremely agressive.

Likewise, try Small Supreme (again, 3v3 at most, prefer 2v2). Every game I've played on that has been a hefty mix of attack and defense using each and every class of unit.

[Caydr]

I think FA's caught the drama queen syndrome.

Everything's going to be better in the next version, I've got lots of good stuff on the way.

[DavetheBrave]

How many AA games have you played recently FA? Maybe you only remember the games that ended up that way. I know that most of the games i play are not like that.

Edit: Most 1v1 games with good players are won and lost on lvl 1. You will get screwed if you build too many defenses or go lvl 2 too soon.

[Cabbage]

BTW cabbage, what about those games that you I and whoever else played (usually drex). Either we totally pwned the opponents, or it turned into trench warfare (when I got sick of the trench warfae is when I started just AK farming, because AK farming is fun, trench warfare? Not so much).

BTW cabbage, what about those games that you I and whoever else played (usually drex). Either we totally pwned the opponents, or it turned into trench warfare (when I got sick of the trench warfae is when I started just AK farming, because AK farming is fun, trench warfare? Not so much).

Yes, random noobs often didn't stanbd a chance against steve, dave myself you etc, and they still get wtf pwned by us now. It's not due to the mod, its due to playstyle.

And trench warfare? thats a joke, the last time i saw an anni built (other than today by daywalker infact, and dave yesterday) must have been well over a month ago.

Why do you make up stuff? Your version of how a game progresses is an utter fabrication. Unless your playing utter noobs (and you'd have to be one yourself to let it happen) that simply would never happen. You can do exactly the same thing in EE or other mods (And dont say it wouldn't happen in EE, if whoever is playing is too stupid to build termors, merls, vanguards or whatever in AA to deal with defences, then they'll be just as incapable of doing the same in EE).

Stop posting bollocks.

[Cabbage]

Caydr Wrote:

I think FA's caught the drama queen syndrome.

Everything's going to be better in the next version, I've got lots of good stuff on the way.

I'll give you £100 Sterling not to change autoheal!

[BoredJoe]

Bottom line. Fix AA's porcfesting and I will happily start playing it again.

I've been playing AA with an EE influence lately, it works perfectly well and mullers anyone who trys to porc (as long as it isn't greenfields/speedmetal)

[Caydr]

My paypal account is altor@rogers.com, Cabbage.

I'm getting really excited about this next version. You know, that kind of excitement that sticks in the bottom of your throat and makes you giggle like a little girl? Like, when you see Samus in her flight suit? Ehh... yeah well anyway, so far it's mostly just planning so far, but I've really truly got a lot of cool stuff in the works.

For instance, I have "multi-pronged" (current lack of equilibrium) solutions and improvements to water balance, porcing, large land maps ("attacking the future"), subs, amphibious, and lots of other stuff.

[jellyman]

AA can promote trench warfare - yes. Porcing no. I don't like the trench warfare aspect, but I've never seen it get as bad as Forboding says. More like someone gets a jump with the annis in the middle, expands to control more territory, more economy. Defender falls back and builds another defensive line outside annis range. But with more attackers this defensive line is placed under siege and an anni or three pops up within range. I've been in games like that were you can tell that the attacker is going to win eventually but it may be ages yet...

As I've said before it doesn't happen in elite play or 1 vs 1 so much (or rather at all), but seems common in 4 v 4 with mid to high level players (i.e. most level 3/4 and some stars). Maybe it has more to do with the mid level players attitude of uncertainty and trying to go for safety first. Going for 5 nuke plants and a krogoth or 3 before trying to really press home the advantage instead of just pumping the tech 1 or 2 units they've got and overwhelming the opponent quickly and mercilessly.

Possible solutions? Don't know. Maybe try and write some more stuff on the wiki about balance and how aggression pays off. Maybe most half decent but not elite players like the game that way and I should stop playing in those types of games. But enough people complain about this aspect - despite the screaming howls of 'noob' that I think its an issue worth at least considering....

Not sure about Forboding's proposal to leave llts, hlts, guardians annis, missile towers and flakkers though. I think that a very successfull trench can be built based on those units. Stuff like nuke's and berthas can be a significant game buster in such situations. One of the factors I think in AA that tends to produce a win one way or the other is that there are a lot of different ways to attack. Level 1 swarms, level 2 swarms, level 3 mechs. Rading. Brawlers, bombers, nukes. Guardian/anni creep.

Any of these tactics can be countered by a would be porcer effectively and easily if you know what the attack is going to be. But even in maps like speed metal the porcer has a significant disadvantage - you don't know what the attacker is going to hit you with. If a porc is going to hold out everything, then you have to split your defence between anti nuke and anti air and anti swarm, and anti heavy assault etc. But if the attacker concentrates heavily one on aspect - builds nothing but nukes, or nothing but brawlers, or nothing but pyros, there is a fair chance that the attack will prevail against a balanced defence.

So removing berthas/nukes would make the game favour the porcer more I think. I would consider building a 'porc' type defence and then some nukes/berthas is not really porcing, just an unorthodox method of attack - but I guess most people really hate losing to such a strategy (I know I do).

Maybe someone could try hosting a few games with some of the defensive structures disabled. I can't figure out how to get around my firewall so its not going to be me. It wouldn't require any change by Caydr to test if Forboding's idea would improve game play or not....

Or maybe we could make some specialist assault units - that are much more effective against defensive lines, but not so good against units. Laser reflective tanks tearing into an Anni/Hlt line could be fun. Or extremely frustating if you are on the receiving end. What would happen if we buffed the merls/diplomats etc with added hp or damage. Would it be possible to buff them so that they are commonly used as a defense busting unit, but not so buff that you'd never build a golli or a maverick again?

[Caydr]

Hmm.., on page 57 it's pointed out to me that Hyper Radars really aren't much good for anything anymore. They were great in OTA but now hills obstruct radar... think they ought to get cut? I think I'm going to cut them. Most probably.

Also, what would you suggest I do with liches? I was thinking, reduce cost and BT a bit and give them back some of their old AoE. Some of it. Small steps...

[Argh]

Hey Caydr... not to step on yer toes, or anything... but if you made the Hyper Radars be a "plane" with zero acceleration, zero deceleration, and, say, a cruisealt of 300, dontland, etc... it'd become far more useful again. Surely there's a suitable model/script out there somewhere...

[Forboding Angel]

I think FA's caught the drama queen syndrome.

Everything's going to be better in the next version, I've got lots of good stuff on the way.

Well it's frustrating. Back some time ago AA was a lot of fun to play. I think the decline started when you made techforges non default.

Like I said. Meh.

BTW dave, generally when I play AA it's because I can't get a game in any other mod, which means it's about 3 am central time.

[Caydr]

That'd be a neat trick. Hmm... no movement... no rotation... there's gotta be something that'd mess it up, I just know it. Units would probably behave strangely when attacking it, I bet. Or else... aha, yeah, they'd probably walk through it. That's the problem. I could make it be some sort of funky "antigravity structure" or something which floated above the terrain... but then I bet you could probably build 10 of them on top of each other since planes don't have that sort of collision detection probably. Regardless of the cruisealt, it'd still be useless at extreme ranges if there was any significant terrain features - and its main use is supposed to be extreme range detection.

Maybe I could use this seismic system they're putting in instead of the hyper radar structure. It'd work as it does in OTA, I think.

I'm all the way to page 70 tonight, I'll read through the next 26 tomorrow. Seems I've missed a lot of colorful conversation?

This L2 kbot thing is coming along very slowly and it's possible I've lost the models I made. I haven't had the strength of heart to actually check all the things I've lost lately. In the meantime, would anyone like to suggest some units that look OK and might be passable as anti-air units? Appearance really doesn't matter very much, just as long as they have a fully modeled body and torso so they don't look like crap in 3D.

Do variants work right now or not? A couple people say they aren't working, but there's no clear description and I haven't got Spring set up for testing.