Absolute Annihilation 2.11

[Neddie]

Removing autoheal would slow the mod, logically, but in conjunction with some of the other suggestions (Assistance limitations, etcetera...) works out pretty well across the board. I would rather not deal with it in my standard game of AA, but it has some merits and some weaknesses.

[LathanStanley]

I don't like to go behind the scenes and state something like that in a PM because if I did grab his attention and he DOES switch things around... and nothing is on the board as to why?.,.. it'll cause him alot of greif, and a pisston of PM's asking him for this and that and this and that....

so I'm posting it here, if people like the idea, if its fair, if its better than it is now.. if it CAN be better with minor changes.. or suggestions, it wil be done, and everyone will know why...

its a little different than making a freakin christmas list and giving it to santa claus.

I just don't intend on pissing people off... even if I do so.

[Machiosabre]

right, then people can still disagree with it and make a post about why, which is what we're doing.
and a lot of people seem to think it wouldn't be better and some think it would, nothing to get worked up about.

[Neddie]

I don't like to go behind the scenes and state something like that in a PM because if I did grab his attention and he DOES switch things around... and nothing is on the board as to why?.,.. it'll cause him alot of greif, and a pisston of PM's asking him for this and that and this and that....

so I'm posting it here, if people like the idea, if its fair, if its better than it is now.. if it CAN be better with minor changes.. or suggestions, it wil be done, and everyone will know why...

its a little different than making a freakin christmas list and giving it to santa claus.

I just don't intend on pissing people off... even if I do so.

I agree with the spirit of that post.

I personally am holding onto a lot of stuff until I can give him a partial design document for my suggestions on this thread that will hold up to anything the other posters want to know. I could have started PMing him, but that would be rude and inefficent, and unfair to the community.

As I've said before, this would make a great mutator, but I believe the majority has spoken against the removal of autoheal in the main mod. I would play the mutator, like I play (F) and (H) from time to time, though not recently.

[Aun]

Kixxe posted it twice...

[Neddie]

Kixxe posted it twice...

Sssshhh... I'm trying to get other people to realize that without pointing them directly to it. Besides, if we say it enough, Caydr might bundle it with the mod download.

[Wolf-In-Exile]

I don't really see the big point of arguing over such a little thing as autoheal.

Really, you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Its not like the autoheal repairs Krogoths in 5 seconds. It takes many long minutes for a unit to autoheal.

Units like the PeeWee may seem to have a higher autoheal rate, but when you consider their health value, being at full health or half won't matter if they get hit by a plasma cannon, and in higher level units like the Bulldog, you can't even see a noticeable difference in the health unless you use con units to repair those.

The feature in itself is really negligible in later stages of the game; it only helps if you get rushed early on where lvl 1 unit skirmishes occur.

In any case, the game balance has already evolved faaaar away from OTA anyway to become more tactical, so expecting an experience like OTA is unrealistic, and really unfair to those who do like the mod as it is.

The game has become much slower than OTA already; and like neddiedrow said removing autoheal would add another burdensome layer of micro to the game, which is something I do not want.

At first, I was not really completely satisfied with AA either, one of the reasons that missile units are now more specialised, where the Crasher and missile towers can't fire at ground targets anymore etc but I've learned to roll with it. Afterall, if I want to play OTA i'd play OTA, not AA!


Even in Warcraft 3, a very, very tactial game had autoheal. Why didn't anyone complain about it then? In fact they had stuff to boost the heal rate.

You may argue that its a fantasy game, but then again TA has Nanolathes too, so why not?

Now I respect your opinion and i'm sure everyone else does too, but respect must be mutual for things to work.

In a case of conflicting opinions and interests, the best solution to the problem is priority for the majority; the very basis of democracy.

But unlike politics, in modding we can still reach a compromise, so if you don't like autoheal or some other feature, get Caydr to make a mutator or make one yourself.

That way everyone's happy.

[Kixxe]

Except that no one plays the mutators. Which then leads to the all ovbius "there is no one playing, therefore you can't play a game, therefore you stop playing, therfore no one is playing."

meh. Fine.

[Wolf-In-Exile]

Then..... If you can't beat em, join em?

[Kixxe]

Ooh, but the game has just begun!

[Egarwaen]

Except that no one plays the mutators. Which then leads to the all ovbius "there is no one playing, therefore you can't play a game, therefore you stop playing, therfore no one is playing."

Host your own game. Advertise it in #main. People will try new things if you're willing to be patient and suggest why they might be interested.

Also, Argh on Nanoblobs:

In NanoBlobs.. you win by killing the enemy... period. No tactic is "lame". Everything has a fairly obvious counter... plus a lot of subtleties.

[Hellspawn]

Auto heal is fine, AA is decent and doesn't need major change. Is very fun and playable. AA ISN'T OTA.

Play the game before you make comments about it....

I am sure that most of skilled players in AA would agree with me.

Caydr keep up the good work^^.

edit: and lathan if 2 tanks kills you it's your fault, not mod's fault.

[Egarwaen]

thats why level one rushes work. back in OTA, and most of all RTS games.. to run 2 of the TINYIEST tanks at your opponent as fast as your can, usually hurts you more than it helps you... why? because they die.

Uh... Aren't rushes the dominant tactic in high-level competitive play of most RTS games? AA is significantly less rush-friendly than most, in that a couple of cheap and fast-building LLTs will blunt any offensive your opponent can throw at your main base for a decent amount of time.

[KDR_11k]

Depends on how you mean "rush". Attacking early and often? Sure. Sacrificing your economy to make a strong attack early on and be completely vulnerable if that doesn't work out? Noone would try that against a good player. As I understand it the only people Zergrushing in SC are noobs because a good player will easily counter that rush and trash the rusher.

[Hellspawn]

You need to use wave rushing in AA when each wave needs to eb stronger unless you already breach defence.

[knorke]

You need to use wave rushing in AA when each wave needs to eb stronger unless you already breach defence.

Yea, thats sometimes a bit annoying:
You attack the enemy but your units only get the guardian-cannon/HLT down to ~200 hp. Then the attack was useless (ok,maybe you destroyed some small stuff) which sometimes can seem "unfair."
Units heal-times are ok I guess. A few seconds sometimes make the difference in a thud/rocko/peewee fight which can lead to nice battles.

The heal-times of buildings could _maybe_ be reduced which might make risky attacks more effective. (which is good imo)

Some auto-healing-area unit (china's propaganda-tower in C&C-Generals, the medics in SC,..) might be interessting.

[Caydr]

I'm probably going to lengthen the time a unit has to be idle before autorepair kicks in (except in special cases like commander) by quite a bit. IMO it's a major factor in encouraging porcing - you attack and your opponent hasn't even got to do anything and in a minute or two everything you spent your entire army on will be at 100% HP again, having also gained XP. Meanwhile your army is gone and you have to rebuild. Even assuming your army was back to top condition in 60 seconds, your opponent would already be a good ways along repairing all his structures without having lifted a finger.

So, what sounds like a good time before autorepair kicks in? I was thinking either 300 or 600 (5 minutes or 10 minutes, respectively). Don't try and veto this, because it's happening. It's how it was in OTA AA, and OTA AA wasn't nearly so porc-happy.

[Aun]

w00t.

[Acidd_UK]

I bet, since the older community here, and 99% of the developers, scripters, modders, mappers, and modelers GREW UP on TA like it was meant to be, will play TA as it was meant to be... WITHOUT AUTO-HEAL!

and I bet you guys will learn to follow suit and defend it as blindly as you defend auto-heal right now....

soo you know what? quit whining, learn to like it. It was the origional, it worked then, it worked sooooo damn well they MADE Spring to keep it going...

I really take issue with this point. You seem to be implying that anyone that played OTA doesn't like autoheal. You should feel free to express you opinion, but pls don't make out like you speak for the majority of people - it is clear from the heated discussion that there's a lot that disagree with you. To then go on to accuse the players that are defending autoheal of whinig seems very rich, you must understand you come across as whining yourself.

To use the argument 'it worked for OTA so it should work now' doesn't follow, since the logical extension is that every feature of OTA 'worked' for it (arguable this statement is false anyway) and therefore we have no need for Spring, since OTA was so good. Now, I wa sa big fan of OTA, but I feel that AA is a massive step forward for TA-like games. To briefly cover the point of combat autorepair, my views are summed up nicely by Hellspawn and Wolf-in-Exile's posts above - removing it would only add more boring micro and divert focus away from the Annihilation. In fact;

I found it fun, and it made my attacking a litthe less effective. Im online if you need a person to play agsint.

This would be the main reson I wouldn't want to try it - making attacking less effective is not a good thing, in my opinion. As many have said, you can already withdraw your army to a 'safe zone' and let it idle for a while if you want to heal it without micro.

Finally, the people that suggest that level 1 defences are too powerful need to understand that 3-4 rocket bots will take down an llt without loss, maybe 10 or so will take down an hlt with medium losses, these defences are not unbeatable. I suspect many players are throwing 1-2 unitas at a time against an hlt, losing maybe 20-50 units in this way, and then saying the defences are too powerful. It's obvious in this situation that it's the attacking strategy that is deficient.

Lathan, I'd really suggest you watch the "Replay of the Week" between Hellspawn and Jazz to show the way that AA was meant to be played - if you still don't like it, then I don't think AA will ever be for you. Maybe try out XTA, EE etc and see if there's something more suited to your tastes. If not, then you clearly know that there's a big community of OTA players who are ready to play your vision of a perfect mod - I'm sure they'd be happy to help you make it, too.

In the meantime, lets try to stop arguning about what essentially comes down to people personal opinions. When Cadyr reads through all the posts, I'm sure he'll make his mind up then.

Peace out (except for the stinking ARM scum of the universe)

[knorke]

Not many units sit around unattacked for 10 minutes...
The timer starts when not being attacked, right?

Please consider only reducing the selfhealing of buildings, I see nothing wrong with attack->go back to heal->attack again.