FSF stance on GPL issues. - Page 10

FSF stance on GPL issues.

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SpliFF
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by SpliFF »

I did read it all. This has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge and everything to do with the "selective myopia" going on around here.

If you want to ignore GPL violations then why have a license at all. Why this thread, and the 30 others like it?

I'm just adding some information, backed by a reasonable amount of personal experience with GPL issues, to the general noise and misinformation going on. Too many comments in this thread are simply untrue.
GPLv2 wrote:Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program.

In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License.
I would argue that PURE is "based on" Spring. Calling the license viral or claiming it's a contaminant directly ignores the clause I just referenced. The contaminant is PURE, since by any reasonable standard it is directly violating the license. PURE doesn't have to be GPL, but since it's clearly "based on" Spring there is nothing giving Argh permission to aggregate them in his installer.

If we provide a "blanket permission" for mods we basically provide a loophole the size of a planet. There is nothing stopping a developer claiming their closed-source Spring changes are an allowable mod. I'm warning everyone (again, if that's what it takes) that you enable an unscrupulous developer to disregard the license ENTIRELY if you don't choose your wording carefully. KDR_11k gets this.
smoth wrote:What do you mean? I was concerned about attribution?
I mean this:
smoth wrote:The reason generous people do not like the idea of GPL is that it does restrict what license you use. For example: I like the attribution license and most specifically all I ever want is to make sure people tell others where the resource is so they can use it. It goes against my nature to have a license forced on me and in general I would rather not give anything at all.
I was simply pointing out that GPLv3 addresses attribution specifically and GPLv2 is probably compatible with a similar clause. If you're arguing that GPL prevents you from releasing public domain code that's incorrect. The GPL prevents restrictions being added to GPL'ed code that RESTRICT end-user rights. It does not prevent the granting of ADDITIONAL rights where they don't conflict. Does your current license actually conflict with the GPL?
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smoth
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by smoth »

ah, when I say the attribution license I mean the CC attri license which is not compatible with GPL. I was arguing that I didn't like the viral nature of GPL. It means that people who want to use the stuff that I was trying to give away have some license forced on them.

To answer your other question. None of us gave two fucks about licenses until one particular community member decided he wanted to make a huge stink about gpl. The same one that now is trying to recant his earlier statements. Before all this bullshit was started we were all on a loose honor system and mostly people respected it. The community enforced it and yeah it probably was a bit loose but it worked. Most of the time people shared openly, now thanks to the drama caused by certain persons trying to say we had to gpl our shit the community was fractured.

I am not saying this place was ever nice but we were one nice amorphous blob of hatred. Now we are a well formed group of hateful shapes that spend most of our time worrying about shit that doesn't matter and infighting over it.
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SpliFF
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by SpliFF »

I think I understand the spirit of your concern, you basically want a PD license but with the ability to prevent the modification or removal of a CREDITS file? Otherwise you don't might your code being used in a closed-source project?

I'm not personally comfortable with the thought of a corporate fork of Spring that didn't share its code. I think the GPL is the best there is for that particular task. It is compatible with a lot of licenses, just not CC. Still for the record:
5 reasons not to choose a Creative Commons license for code

I don't have much to add on the subject of CC because I've never used it or given it much thought.

For everyone else. I know I'm the new guy here but I do intend to contribute all of my code back to the community. My condition for doing so is that my generosity is reciprocated by all users of my code. GPL is the means to enforce this and you can be sure that if pushed I will. Copyright is not particularly expensive to enforce, and it's even easier when a clear breach of GPL is involved. LGPL and poorly-worded exemptions makes it easier for my generosity to be abused.

Ironically, I still intend to commercialise parts of my work by providing customised closed-source solutions to corporate developers. Buying libraries is all the rage these days (Supreme Commander uses at least 10 3rd-party libraries). Since GPL is so offensive to commercial game developers I can sell them non-GPLed versions of my work without any loss to the community. It's win-win for everyone. Claiming that GPL removes the ability to commercialise code is just wrong. It simply gives free-software an advantage that keeps it competitive. It's only an issue if I start incorporating other peoples code into my project, at which point selling it under on non-GPL license would be simple theft if I did not get their permission and compensate fairly.
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KDR_11k
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by KDR_11k »

Well, I for one don't care what license others use on their mods and when I make something for sharing I make it for actual sharing and to benefit everyone, not just my comrades who agree to the same limitations as I do.

As for staying competitive, do you see sharing as a way of competing for fame or do you see it as a way of improving the world?
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smoth
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by smoth »

in all honesty spliff, getting credit for anything I have done is a request. I never wanted to demand it. I generally lean towards PD. I do hate that corporate douches could abuse my work but to be honest, if I saw one of my effects in a game and someone made money off of it, I would check for a shout out and regardless of whether the person credited me, I would think, cool, my stuff was useful. I just don't want someone turning around and saying that I did not make something, because then I might be forced to remove an effect and redo it, wasting my time.

KDR_11k wrote:As for staying competitive, do you see sharing as a way of competing for fame or do you see it as a way of improving the world?
This question is a good one. Mind if I reuse it later kdr?
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SpliFF
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by SpliFF »

KDR_11k wrote:As for staying competitive, do you see sharing as a way of competing for fame or do you see it as a way of improving the world?
Both, and more.

I don't just write mods for fame, if that were the case i'd use my real name. I do it because there's a particular style of RTS gameplay I'm interested in that no corporate or free offering has. Never mind the reasons for that, the point is I expect the gameplay and AI of my mod to be quite unique and the development time to be quite long. I'll then have to go through a difficult process of convincing players to play it. Just like the Spring engine itself.

Now say a company comes along as says "beauty!, here's a free engine, and a popular mod; however it also has poorly worded license, limited artwork and some bugs. We've got a team here who can finish the 'product' and sell it without releasing the code."

Suddenly I'm competing for players against my own work, however I have the disadvantage that my code can be copied but theirs cannot. They get my improvements but not vice-versa. The GPL levels the field a bit, at least as far as code goes.

Basically I never want to see Spring competing against itself unless its alternate version is also free. GPL provides the strongest guarantee of this, other licenses, including LGPL and "GPL with loophole" provide less protection or no protection at all.

As I pointed out, my interest is not to be a communist. It's to ensure my skills are more valuable to a corporate raider than my code. If they can use my code without worrying about the implications of GPL then they don't need me. Releasing as GPL gives me promotion but leaves me something to "sell". This argument doesn't apply to Spring itself but I make it to avoid being categorised as some kind of dippy hippy (though I guess I chose and unfortunate nick :wink: ).

In short. The competition is for players. If Supreme Commander weren't so popular its possible the Spring community would be much larger. There will be other competitors too but why should they get a free ride on your work, if they aren't prepared to help you in return? That's fine if you're altruistic but none of you sound like priests to me.
:|
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KDR_11k
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by KDR_11k »

I see a license that shares as a way of creating a common pool of material that anyone can access and that means truly anyone, those who wish to contribute to the common pool can do that at their own discretion rather than being forced to do so in exchange for the pool's contents and having to force others as well. That latter part is why I don't use the GPL, I'm forced to push it onto others if I use any GPL material and obviously cannot contribute to the common pool, only to a private pool that's only accessible to certain projects. Many people don't have the freedom to pick their license anyway and GPL means teams like SWIW, *A, Gundam, etc are excluded from using the material simply because they are not really in control of the mod's IP.

A company taking our work and profiting from it? Terribly unlikely, there'd be a crapload of work needed to bring something made by us up to commercial standards, can just as well start from scratch and avoid any legal hassles (just because a license looks like it has a loophole doesn't mean the courts will agree). The most they could do is take some of the parts (e.g. some effect textures).

And hell, when they do, so what? You made life easier for them and for anyone else.
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Argh
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Argh »

Dear Spliff:

1. Your argument hinges on "pipes", and is incorrect.

2. You mistake mere aggregation with distribution. Distribution is when it's all one archive, or when they're explicitly tied together, which they are not until a user runs the engine. Spring is a huge collection of archives. The installer merely packages them.

3. You are guilty of mixing V. 2 language with V. 3 where it's convenient to your arguments.

4. You fail to realize that the "nuclear option" is still available at any time, and I would use it if anybody seriously tried to interfere with me (i.e., sent me a C&D, sent a takedown request or opened a lawsuit). Which would, effectively, mean the end of Spring.

5. You're using the "whole game" argument, which even the FSF didn't advance. Therefore, while the source code of P.U.R.E. may be considered fair game, if I accepted your arguments, which I don't, the content would not be fair game. Distributing it without my explicit content, making a "fork", etc. would result in a swift C&D from me.

6. Unless you have contributed source to the Spring engine, you have no standing for your complaints.

7. Even if you contributed to Spring, felt you could sue me, had the resources, and the judge didn't dismiss the case, you'd have to demonstrate damages to get anywhere in court. Good luck with that.

In short... thanks for playing, but I believe you're wrong, and even if you're not wrong, it doesn't make things any better.
Last edited by Argh on 04 Oct 2008, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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smoth
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by smoth »

I agree with all but 3&3 argh and the fact that you like to threaten it makes me find you repulsive. What because someone pissed in your cheerios you would go and fuck over a bunch of other people? How is that even justified? It is childish and akin to throwing a tantrum because you didn't get your way. If someone fucked you over I think you need to take it up with the person responsible otherwise you are just taking potshots and trying to bully people around.
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Argh
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Argh »

<shrugs>

If they won't listen to sweet reason and straightforward logic, when I have argued this from different positions and have clearly been willing to listen to the most compelling arguments provided... then they can view the Abyss, Smoth.

I think it's remarkable that this guy blew past all of my previous statements about this, and doesn't get the implications of what was said... so, meh, I made it a short 6-point summary of why he's wrong, and why even if he's right, it doesn't actually matter. It's MAD, at its finest. Quit posting about this, people, unless you actually have a novel argument.
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KDR_11k
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by KDR_11k »

Argh wrote:6. Even if you contributed to Spring, felt you could sue me, had the resources, and the judge didn't dismiss the case, you'd have to demonstrate damages to get anywhere in court. Good luck with that.
Statutory damages ring a bell?
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lurker
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by lurker »

Yes, your amazing 'nuclear option', which has two possible outcomes.
1. TA mods are out of the installer, could be a good thing, everyone quickly gets BA via their lobby.
2. Your contributions to spring are replaced, not a gigantic effort.

End of Spring what? And doesn't your nuclear option also need damages?
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SpliFF
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by SpliFF »

I've been warned about arguing with you so I'll keep this short.

You may have made your points many times before but they are still wrong. The fact that you changed sides on the whole issue makes me wonder whether you believe those arguments yourself. I think it's convenient for you to ignore the license so you argue over definitions.

You're not a creationist are you?

Anyway, in response:

1. My argument hinges on the fact you have created a work "based on" GPL'ed code and re-licensed it.

2. You ARE distributing Spring. Therefore you are expected to honour the terms of distribution.

3. I made it clear where I used v3 language.

3. I've never heard of a GPL contributor effectively revoking the license once granted. If this were an issue their code would be replaced.

4. I never said your code was "fair game". I said you can't legally distribute Spring unless you comply with its license. This has nothing to do with how you choose to license YOUR work.

5. I made that point myself. You're adding nothing to the argument.

6. This is really your only valid argument isn't it. You can get away with it so you do whatever you want. I just don't see why you're arguing about a license you clearly intend to violate.

Anyway. I'm out of this debate. I don't actually care what you do. I'm concerned about the suggestion you made to change the license. The GPL serves a purpose and if it is going to be changed it should be a valid license not something with massive loopholes.
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Argh
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Argh »

<shrugs>

1. There is no effective way to "remove" things from a GPL'd project. Think about it- if it was an idea, not just a practical implementation, the copyright's always in force. Spring's full of my ideas, Lurker. Now you know why commercial game companies generally don't talk directly to the public, even if they're listening to their Forums or whatever for ideas (where they generally assert ownership of said conversations, btw).

2. The minute Spring quits distributing sounds, bitmaps and other content from OTA, quits including any games that infringe copyrights in the Installer (yes, downloading that way is "distribution" in any meaningful sense, if we accept that broad definition), and generally adheres to the GPL itself... is the minute I start taking the merits of putting my code under the GPL seriously as well. The content is never going to be GPL, and even the FSF didn't try that, so it'd be what I would be selling.
imbaczek
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by imbaczek »

Argh wrote:<shrugs>

1. There is no effective way to "remove" things from a GPL'd project. Think about it- if it was an idea, not just a practical implementation, the copyright's always in force.
Exactly the reason you can't copyright ideas. You can only copyright implementations, and those can be replaced (see also clean room reverse engineering.)
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Argh
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Argh »

Where an "idea" ends and an "implementation" begins, is really murky. Moreover, as the posts I pointed to earlier pretty clearly show, the entire basis of CEG is based on my initial work. It'd be really hard to establish that it's not, either- I prototyped ColorMap.

At any rate... let's say, for the sake of argument, that since that actual, committed code was replaced, that I have no standing as an engine license holder.

Does that make things better, or worse? Well, it doesn't make things better, actually, it just doesn't leave me with any real leverage, other than the moral arguments.

I'll make the code GPL, no problem... the minute that you apply that same logic to everybody in a distribution that is initiated by the project. Otherwise it's a farce, and I'm ignoring this from here until that day, or until such time that we go to court and test these legal theories out. This is my final post on this, I'm sick of these circular arguments, and all I really want is to be left in peace.
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Neddie
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Neddie »

Spliff's arguments turn upon two different things; his interpretation of "based upon" and his interpretation of "aggregate".

Both interpretations can be substantiated in law but they are not the only necessarily valid ones. Spliff is expressing a view counter to some of yours, but that does not mean that you cannot use it to your benefit.

I can argue thus...
P.U.R.E. is dependent upon the Spring Engine, it is not based upon it - what makes P.U.R.E. what it is could have been realized on any number of theoretical and real engines or platforms. The definition of "based upon" is hereby transliterated as "derived from" and would apply only where without definitive extrapolation and development from the engine P.U.R.E. could not be realized. This is not the case.

Similarly...
The distribution of P.U.R.E. with the Spring Engine is not a case of aggregation. Aggregation implies an intrinsic link between the components of the aggregate; the Spring Engine and P.U.R.E. can be acquired separately and still function together. They are simply released together for the sake of convenience - without an intrinsic link or code exchange in distribution. They do not comprise a necessary composite aggregate and thus their distribution in the same object is not in violation.

Law is grounded in analogy; common guidelines are established from cases and then applied to cases. My first counter example is at least as strong as Spliff's, the interpretation can be easily and simply argued. The second is less so... aggregation has many subtle meanings and you can cite multiple legal precedents in analogy.

Clearly separate the distribution of the engine from the content, in fact, don't distribute it with the game; this protects you from his stronger interpretation, that of "aggregate". It may be less convenient for the end user, it may not be logical, but it is a valid action which brings you into relative safety despite Spliff's arguments.

I'd also like to note that for people who depend upon the application of logic for your arguments and thus have extreme difficulty navigating the frustratingly subjective world of legal analogy, some of you just can not avoid logical fallacy in your argumentation. There are three means to argumentation - ethos, logos and pathos. Analogy manipulates all three of them and is an example of none of them. Don't depend on a single one in any legal situation, this will only lead you into the extreme failure of that means. Learn to balance them. When you learn to balance them you will have no use for logical fallacy, emotional outburst or unmitigated name-dropping.

Discussion of law is myopic and no contributor to such discussion is free of that.
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Argh
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by Argh »

Look, I've decided to write to that Bruce Perens guy, cited by imbaczek, to get the final answer to this, since it seems to be elusive and obnoxiously circular in terms of arguments. If he answers, I'm willing to accept whatever he says as the final answer.

For the record, here is the entire text of the email I've sent:
Bruce:

Hi, my name is Greg Wolfe, and you've never heard of me, and I have no money, but please don't blow me off, you seem like one of the very few people out there that might actually be able to help me.

You mentioned the lack of games in the Open Source space in a recent article, and this bears very specifically upon the issues of doing so, and why it's not been happening, in my opinion.

I am a wanna-be game developer. I've been in the "modding" scene for a decade, in my spare time, but obviously I can't sell those games, so it's never really gone anywhere. As I don't have a college degree or contacts in the closed-fishbowl Industry of game development, I've been stuck- I'm extremely passionate about what I do, but I've never earned a dime.

Three years ago, I came upon the Spring project- a game engine that at first was merely an emulator for Cavedog's classic 1997 hit, Total Annihilation. I'd done a little modding of TA years ago, and when I heard that the engine was GPL, I saw this as, perhaps, a unique opportunity to finally have access to a game engine that didn't require me to be an expert software engineer, but to make great game designs and solid content. I signed on, have helped in countless areas, and three years later... I have the first game that might be commercially viable built. It's called P.U.R.E., and we're going to be in two big European game mags this month, we're making waves on ModDB.com, etc., etc.

However, the fact that I'd like to sell the game... means that the Spring game engine is about to enter what will be either a real renaissance, or the death of the project... and it comes down to money.

I know that you guys in the Free Software world like to talk to the world about the great benefits of software freedom, etc., but in this case... we're talking about a game, where huge amounts of time and expertise must be applied to content.

For two years, we've been having massive flame wars about the GPL License on the engine, and whether it makes the entire game GPL or merely the source code.

These flamewars have been psychologically exhausting and brutal, and as one of the people who's been hoping to make and sell a game to people with the engine, I've been pretty desperate to remain legal, so that I can sell my product, so I've been batted around like the proverbial Ping-Pong ball, trying my best to remain legal.

However, depending on who's talking, I either:

1. Need to GPL my entire game, which effectively means no commercialization is possible.

2. Need to GPL my gamecode, but I can sell my content, so long as I am willing to distribute said gamecode.

3. Need to keep all GPL notices intact on the game engine itself, but the game and the gamecode (which is all scripting-language stuff, operating through API layers) and the content may be kept private.

What I need to know is... is it legal to sell my game, period? Because if case #1 is what's true, that's where things stand. You can't sell a game that people will just "fork" and then charge nothing for. It's preposterous- a game is not an OS or a mega-database app., or something like that, where you're basically paying for support down the road. There's no business model that would be workable.

I know you're a very busy and important guy, Bruce. But Spring is, well, damn-near unique. There are a lot of "GPL" game projects of various kinds, but they aren't really of the depth and power of Spring. You cited Battle of Westnoth... trust me, go play P.U.R.E. and you'll see how far ahead this engine is of just about everything else out there. It's not a "mere emulator", it's a very powerful game engine that's still barely been explored.

Yet, these license issues have been a major problem, and the actions of people, however well-meaning, have been very destructive- people like me have scurried back and forth on various positions, as the legal picture became more clear and we started to understand the GPL, but the fighting is a constant drain on our community, and we really, really need some bona-fide expert advice.

We've written to the FSF, and were given very vague, frustrating answers that seemed to indicate that, so long as a distribution of the Spring engine and all of the source code of a game was all kept under the GPL, that our content would not be considered GPL- and as you probably understand, the content is the game, in a very real sense, for a major game that doesn't look like Pong.

So, if you don't feel it would be a waste of time... just answer this question:

Is it legal to distribute a GPL program with proprietary, non-code content, and charge for that content (assuming that I'm perfectly willing to distribute the engine and the game's source code for free)?

In short... this whole situation goes to the core of why the GPL, and the Open Source movement in general, have been generally unable to get a lot of serious game development done, in my opinion. I've seen similar levels of controversy elsewhere, and if you read through Battle of Westnoth's own website, they've bluntly declared that their content isn't GPL, just their engine and code. So, they've basically said what I'm saying I would prefer to do- give back on the code end, but retain my rights to the content, and sell the right to use that content within that specific game engine.

Only guys like me are even willing to stick their necks out and take a risk like this. Every commercial guy I've talked to about this situation thinks I'm crazy, basically. I'd like you to tell me, frankly, if I am, or if this is the future- whether guys like me might make money on this kind of thing, or whether GPL game engines are basically just trash for hobbyist guys.

Because if I did, and had enough to do it, I'd start another GPL game engine project, with a foundation grant to attract coders and get it going... then hopefully use the resulting engine to make another profitable game, etc.. In short, what happens here could be revolutionary... but it's simply not happening if I can't make money. You can't build AAA games on spare-time, no-pay budgets- this game has taken me about $30K and huge amounts of my time, basically working every single day to develop. If I lose, that's probably the last time anybody bothers. I love the concept of Open Source... I just need to reconcile it with a business model that allows me to make the stuff I'm passionate about, and make money doing so.

I'm perfectly willing to accept your judgement on this issue, for good or ill, but I need a real, expert opinion. Please, just answer that one question for me, it might be a really, really big deal, in terms of how games get developed- if we can make money with engine projects as incubators, then there's probably a hugely viral future for Spring. If not... it's probably a dead letter the minute I tell people what you think, frankly, and it could effect games like Battle of Westnoth as well, as we're all basically in the dark about what the GPL means in this context.

Thanks,

Greg Wolfe, Wolfe Games
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smoth
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by smoth »

Sounds good, as a note you should NEVER include profanity in professional correspondence.
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SpliFF
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Re: FSF stance on GPL issues.

Post by SpliFF »

Nice letter. A bit too emotional given the meaning of the v2 license isn't governed by what FSF thinks of the game industry (in hindsight). But I digress.

You do have options here other than breaking the license or "abandoning all hope". I'm not sure to what extent you've really explored them.

1.) Go through the source code contributors list and find out who is still around. Ask them what code they contributed (or use the svn log) and ask if they will give you the code they wrote under an alternate license. There appears to be a fairly small group of core developers so assuming they're ok with it (basically assuming you haven't pissed them off yet or can sweeten the deal) you should be able to account for the bulk of the Spring code, one way or the other. Hire a programmer to fill in the missing pieces or do it yourself.

2.) (Your easiest and cheapest option) Sell your game with simple instructions on how to obtain Spring from an official source. Since you definitely aren't distributing Spring you remove 100% of the case against you. I know this makes your game slightly harder to install and less professional but if your game is good enough people will simply do it. On your box, website and installer write "This game requires the free Spring engine to play." Then, in your installer provide a button called "Install Spring (required)" that links directly to the official download page (but not the archive itself).

So the issue is not simply have your way or fail. There are compromise positions you can explore if the FSF does not see things the way you'd like or the devs won't re-license the engine as a whole.

PS. You accused me repeatedly (and falsely) of not reading the thread. Did you realise your letter is an enquiry about the legal position of your data and the very first post in this thread addresses that?:
KDR_11k wrote:First off, data is exempt from the GPL propagation rules, all your art, TDF/FBI, sound, etc files are considered separate from the code in the mod and as such the one mod = one work interpretation does NOT apply.
I'd have to read the whole thread again to remember whether you agree or disagree with this statement but I had always assumed the issue here was code. If you license your code (Lua + C) as GPL and your data seperately then everyone gets what they want, right?
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