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[Forboding Angel]

What???

That argument makes no sense machio! I have no idea why you quoted me because your comment was completely ambiguous.

The more images you have, the more variety you get. Come on dude, this isn't a difficult concept.

[Machiosabre]

hypothetical: Argh pastes a picture into a template 15 times and you do it 5 times, does he deserve more time on the main page?

make 15 images if you can make 15 that you like, not just to have 15 images, waste of time.

this is my argument.

more isn't better,
wasting more time isn't necessary,
there will be no shortage of images.

[Argh]

By that logic, if a product's magnitude of marketing is to be based on the authors' contribution to Spring, the banners should consist entirely of the TA demo recorder, old versions of xta, and other projects lead devs are involved in such as bzflag.

You're getting it backwards, as usual. Moreover, you're totally insulting all of us who have outlasted every dev, like myself. I proposed Lua integration. I pushed the AI developers into making stuff that worked. I promoted S3O. I helped create, and then demonstrated, CEG code. And I'm about to deliver a lot of pretty powerful Lua for general use.

So yeah, I damn well have a claim to the front page. And I'm far from alone here- people like Smoth, FLOZi, WZ et al have all contributed enormously, both in terms of sourcecode and ideas. And we're the primary content designers, without which, the engine is pretty meaningless.

you don't need 200 images for variety. you need it for wasting a lot of time for no reason.

Yes, we do, because that will cause users to stay on the front page, which should be a goal. If they stay there to cycle through stuff, they will see visual variety and will also learn about the different games available.

Look. If it ends up being that way, by technological fiat, you will just see fewer images, because the incentives are poorly designed. It's simple economics, guys. Incentives create behavior.

hypothetical: Argh pastes a picture into a template 15 times and you do it 5 times, does he deserve more time on the main page?

Now, there's a straw man if I've ever seen one. I didn't do that, so quit arguing it, it's just silly. But I'll go ahead and answer that if somebody does do that, it's just fine with me, so long as they did not go over the maximum limit- it's not like it hurts anybody. Why are you focused on a non-problem?

Nobody wants to allow flooding, it's a non-issue. Quit raising it as if it was. When CA has 15 images, P.U.R.E. has 15 images, and some other guy has 5... he'll see he's not being represented as much, and do something about it. No "fairness technology" is required, it's just common sense behavior. Quit arguing the case for issues that don't exist. The minute NOiZE represented BA, P.U.R.E.'s apparent "flooding" became... just another part of the imagery. That's how it should be. Get work done for CA, put it up, and you'll see how this will work, tbh.

[Forboding Angel]

That is a really dumb argument. You realize that all you have to do is browse through screenshots right? Then just copy paste into a template and save as a jpg?

You are arguing that because some people are EXTREMELY lazy, the rest of us and the site as a whole should suffer. That's a crap argument and you know it.

I've done 5 welcome images so far and I don't even have access to my game. I'm just using old screenshots. Seriously dude, if you're going to try to argue from weak footing, at least use some good logic.

Another working example, doesn't really show off the game very much but it does show how pretty spring can look.



Edit: Damnit argh, I've done my part too. Where would mapping be today if I hadn't come along to wash the masses? *Shudders at the thought of 15 azure rampart remakes) Hell now there are plenty of people that make me actually work to produce content that is on the same level. In particular, Behe is an extremely good adversary (and a really cool guy too), hell I made a new climate because of that buttwipe (which will be on the l3dt climate repository fairly soon btw)

Edit2: Because some people invariably will not understand. ^^ A large part of that (while probably true to some extent) was satirical in nature.

Edit3: Speaking of incentives. I have given mappers and modders alike as well as lua coders engine devs etc etc the ability and opportunity to post regular news on springinfo to show off their new stuff. Very few have taken advantage of it. Which is annoying to me, because the site registers quite a few hits each day (generally well over 100+).

[Machiosabre]

That is a really dumb argument. You realize that all you have to do is browse through screenshots right? Then just copy paste into a template and save as a jpg?

You are arguing that because some people are EXTREMELY lazy, the rest of us and the site as a whole should suffer. That's a crap argument and you know it.

I've done 5 welcome images so far and I don't even have access to my game. I'm just using old screenshots. Seriously dude, if you're going to try to argue from weak footing, at least use some good logic.

Another working example, doesn't really show off the game very much but it does show how pretty spring can look.



Edit: Damnit argh, I've done my part too. Where would mapping be today if I hadn't come along to wash the masses? *Shudders at the thought of 15 azure rampart remakes) Hell now there are plenty of people that make me actually work to produce content that is on the same level. In particular, Behe is an extremely good adversary (and a really cool guy too), hell I made a new climate because of that buttwipe (which will be on the l3dt climate repository fairly soon btw)

exactly! making images is so easy! why even reward a guy for pumping out 15 images? just ask for some quality.

aahh I made 15 images and some guy made 5 I'm suffering

also argh, what jerkoff is going to refresh the page 200 times?

hell if you want to count on refreshing you should argue to reduce the amount of images to make the chance of the same mod appearing over and over smaller.

anyway this argument can be solved so easily by the guys making the site just saying what they want and what they'll accept.

[Argh]

That is a really dumb argument. You realize that all you have to do is browse through screenshots right? Then just copy paste into a template and save as a jpg?

Well, yeah, that part of the process is simple.

But you still have to have made really good screenshots, which is an art in and of itself- picking good angles, good lighting, etc.

It's not as if that's something everybody's equally good at, and it takes a lot of real work to make a spectacular shot.

And I don't have any problem with some newbie, who's proud of his new creation that everybody else realizes looks bad... putting up some screens, and showing the world.

That's how it was done, at Lancer's Reactor. People just wouldn't play the game- it's just that simple. Then the newbie would get feedback from people, and try to improve. It's not a difficult concept to understand, and we don't need some committee trying to keep those guys from being able to put up their work- this is an Open Source project, not a dictatorship, and it should act like one.

Oh, and lastly... put your shots up, Forb. Then maybe people will finally start to see what I'm saying about the diversity of the images, when it's not just P.U.R.E. and BA...

[Forboding Angel]

You are clueless dude. Maybe you need to pop over to php.net and read up on randomization. If you understood how "Random" truly works from a javascript or php approach you might have a chance of understanding what you are talking about.

The fewer images there are THE MORE LIKELY IT IS that a page refresh will show the same image. It's the way the code works. It does not look to see if it has already displayed that image. It doesn't care, and trying to change that would be like trying to swat a fly with an elephant.

I refreshed quite a lot after argh put up all those images. Someone will refresh because they are amazed at how much there is available for a FREE game. Salivating while downloading, just imagining. That's what we want! If you give someone a reason to be truly hungry for a product, then they will swear by that product for a short while, and after that, they either like it enough to stick around, love it enough to become a rabid fanboi, or hate it altogether. With more content like this, the law of averages is on our side.

What jerkoff clicks on ad banners and actually purchases the product? Millions of people do, that's why ad banners works and people are paid to display them on their sites.

@argh: I have been and that comment was directed at machio, not you There are only 5 evo ones up atm. If I have to I'll remote into my home machine and start making them remotely.

[Argh]

You are clueless dude. Maybe you need to pop over to php.net and read up on randomization. If you understood how "Random" truly works from a javascript or php approach you might have a chance of understanding what you are talking about.

The fewer images there are THE MORE LIKELY IT IS that a page refresh will show the same image. It's the way the code works. It does not look to see if it has already displayed that image. It doesn't care, and trying to change that would be like trying to swat a fly with an elephant.

Right. The larger the pool, the less likely any one image will be shown. A 1:200 probability is better for visual diversity purposes than a 1:20. If it's 200 shots, and 25 are really crappy, that's a far lower percentage than if there are 50 total shots up. Some will always be crappy, in the eyes of the beholders... there's nothing that can be done about that, and there isn't any point in trying.

Spring should not be just for the 1337. It's an Open Source game engine that fosters game design at all levels of skill. I am perfectly comfortable with seeing shots from a newbie game with poor art and design, next to shots from IW. IW will still look sexy, and the guy making the newbie game will get better. Given how hard it is to make a new game with this engine, the newbie deserves some props, not some sneering from the upper crust.

[EDIT]That lightning-ball thing is sweet. Nice shot.[/EDIT]

[smoth]

if anything that noobish project will make yours look better.

[Argh]

if anything that noobish project will make yours look better.

Yeah, basically I don't think it's anything for the "establishment" to fear, and it will really give newbies a huge kick when they finally have something worth showing there. It's a win-win, imo.

Oh, and Forb, I think the 18 is about right- not too GIANT BOLD TEXT. I'll switch out the P.U.R.E. shots soonish, drop the size. Hopefully then we can move on to something more productive, like maybe getting the banners to look good without obliterating them visually...

[Machiosabre]

oh you guys I said the same mod, not the same image.

if there aren't 20 images of a mod there is no chance of getting a different image and the same mod 20x in a row.

[Argh]

if there aren't 20 images of a mod there is no chance of getting a different image and the same mod 20x in a row.

If there are 20 games/mods, and all 20 have 15 images, the chances of that happening is practically zero. It's a non-issue.

[Machiosabre]

so just make a system thats inherently fair without a minimum of pictures per mod then, same result.

I don't know why you guys are popping your caps over this anyway, it seems pretty obvious.

[smoth]

tbh 15 seems a bit high to me

[Argh]

so just make a system thats inherently fair without a minimum of pictures per mod then, same result.

Nobody's putting a gun to people's heads, forcing them to make the maximum number of screens. It's up to the game designers to rise to the challenge. It's a very simple and effective way to guarantee a diversity of images.

I don't know why you guys are popping your caps over this anyway, it seems pretty obvious.

Because it's not "obvious".

Go look at the 'site now that Forb's put up more images, Machio. It's already a lot more diverse, and no magical "fairness rules" were necessary. You're just making yourself look silly- get off your arse tonight, and instead of hitting the bars or whatever you do, kick out a bunch of good images for CA. Then you'll just see your project as part of the diversity, like me, NOiZE, and Forb, and whoever else is there.

tbh 15 seems a bit high to me

So, 10? I'm fine with that. I wish we could make a poll in this Forum, we could just vote on this and be done with it

[Machiosabre]

a challenge in futility

[smoth]

yeah 10 seems reasonable to me.

machio weighting the pictures so they are given priority in the randomization is not something simple to do. Of course the lazy way to go would be to tell the guy to post it 10 times

[Forboding Angel]

Well smoth, I said 15 as a catchall. Reason being because it doesn't seem as tho anyone besides argh, noize, and myself are actively participating. I know gundam is bound to have a bunch of screens that will make the rest of us cry, but ok well that's 4 games. 15 each would be 60 images. Therefore the chance or repetition is fairly low.

15 may be a bit high, but I was kinda working with arbitrary numbers based upon the suspicion that participation would initially be rather low.

BTW to note, some of the evo shots will be getting replaced, but for the moment I'm content grabbing.

Oh and here is a link to the template I'm using. The extra width on the bar in the bottom left is for text rendering on other browsers. A just in case type of thing (plus it looks nice, so no big deal).

*Link incoming*

Edit: 10 sounds like a nice round number to me too. Plenty of room to show off some cool stuffage.

[Argh]

Ok, 10 it is then. I'll take the 11th down. Can we get back to the topic of banners now?

On the banners... I think we need a solid rectangle of the deep gray, followed by a gradient fill, ending about 30-40 pixels after the end of the text. The rest of it should be clear, but we should encourage people to try and emulate RoflCopter's original design. Does that sound reasonable to everyone? I still think it won't work as well as people thought originally, but I'm game to try it on Sunday, when I'll have the time...

[Forboding Angel]

yeah 10 seems reasonable to me.

machio weighting the pictures so they are given priority in the randomization is not something simple to do. Of course the lazy way to go would be to tell the guy to post it 10 times

Technically it would be fairly easy to do from the code standpoint, but to put it in a fashion so that users could weight them, that would be damn annoying + the fact that I don't like that idea in the first place. And the code for it would be a freaking mess with that many images.

Maybe I misunderstood you. The code itself would be simple. Actually organizing that code to do the useful bits would be a total pain in the ass and would defeat the entire purpose of randomization anyway.