Balanced Annihilation V5.91

[kiki]

I never use metal gens, but I saw someone use them once. Really, I think the best thing would be to make them t1, for them to have any good use in a game.

:::_____DDDDDDDddddddddddddfasd

Good point sleska.

Seaplanes can be pretty bad, when unexpected. Very bad.

[Evil4Zerggin]

Even with the seaplane downgrades, you should usually expect seaplanes. Most sea contests are decided at T1 (and if you have a good sea player against an average sea player, usually decided within 3 minutes), so generally the sea player owns the sea before T2. At this point the sea player's priority (if they're smart) is to use that sea advantage to help out their land buddies. There are roughly five options for doing so:

1. T1 bombardment.
2. Amphibs.
3. Hovers.
4. Seaplanes.
5. T2 bombardment.

#1 doesn't work terribly well beyond camping unaware lines of reinforcements, since you can't shoot terribly far inland with royers and FHLTs. Amphs are generally too slow and have too limited roles to be as effective as hovers (not to mention being worthless in naval battles), so they're usually out as well. #5 is only valid in late late game due to the huge cost of doing so (ASY is the most expensive T2 factory in the game, and flagship costs a ridiculous amount). This leaves hovers and seaplanes. It is certainly cheaper to go hovers, but seaplanes have a lot in their favor. First of all, it is air, with all the inherent advantages of air, including the element of surprise. Second, seaplanes had, and I would still say they have, the best bombers. Third, it gets you T2 sea econ. Fourth, it's one of the most effective ways to defend a large shoreline against hover attack due to the speed of seaplanes and the relatively poor AA of hovers.

[YokoZar]

1. T1 bombardment.
2. Amphibs.
3. Hovers.
4. Seaplanes.
5. T2 bombardment.

You forgot:

6. Share resources

[Evil4Zerggin]

Hæll no. The last thing I want is some econ player going sea purely because they think this will insulate their economy structures from attack. Generally what happens with econning is that the econ player pours all their resources into more econ, leaving their teammates to die. Even when and if the econ player decides to contribute directly, their skills in actual combat are usually so poor they can't accomplish anything useful even with overwhelming force. Even if the econ player has the ability to moderate their spending so that some overflow goes to their allies, or better yet, actually uses H for Halp to give their economy structures to their allies, their allies may not have the production capability to actually take advantage of that economy.

On a side note, once you own a sea, and have enough metal for yourself, give your land mexes to a land ally. They generally need all the help they can get, and they are in a better position to upgrade said mexes (in the absence of morphing). This is the main form of economic help from sea that I believe is generally a good idea, other than giving some of your things to a competent player on your team who has almost been wiped out.

I contend that, while it can be difficult to project sea power onto land, it is almost always better to take matters into your own hands then focus on feeding your allies (which is the same as in any other arena). First of all, it's hard for your allies to tell what resources you're giving them (unless, again, you use H for Halp). Furthermore, since you are the one controlling those resources, they do not know when, how much, and for how long those resources will be available to them, which makes it difficult to use those resources effectively. Second, the more minds that are actually fighting, playing, and winning, the better. It does not take much thinking or attention to run an economy compared to the other elements of the game. Third, the attack from the sea has several advantages, among them the following:

1. The element of surprise. Even when the enemy controls a sea, many players do not devote proper resources to preparing for an attack from that direction. If they are distracted by your other allies, why not take the opportunity to attack? Often you can destroy a great deal of your enemies' economy with a modest group of scout hovercraft, and later on, commsassinate enemies in the middle of their bases with seaplanes.
2. Long shorelines. The borders between land and sea tend to be long, meaning that your sea attack can come from a variety of directions. It will cost the enemy a great deal to try to defend such a vast area. Even if you cannot muster sufficient force to defeat their defenses, your threat of attack can divert the enemy's resources to defending every possible avenue of your attack.
3. Distraction. By attacking from the sea, you present another front that the enemy has to defend. This has the effect of deflecting the attention of the enemy team, making it more likely that your allies will be able to catch the enemy off-guard on a different front.
4. Personal security. If you devote yourself to fighting, then it is less likely that the enemy will surprise you in turn with an attack of their own and destroy your hard-earned economy.
5. Fail allies. Much of the time your allies cannot be trusted to win the game, no matter how many resources you try to feed to them. Someone has to do the business of winning the game, and if you're in the sea, that's where you have to win the game from.

[ginekolog]

SEA:

Subs overall are too weak. I would take DEST/CORV combo over T1 subs any day and CRUISER/T2 sub killers combo over T3 sub any day.

Subs must be THE water owner. WHy on earth does TL and destoreyr kill subs so easily?? Dest is multifunction unit while sub is very limited.

IMO, SUBS should own sea with factor 2:1 (atleast battlesubs). Whats the point in T1 subs when destroy can kill it 1v1 for same cost while dest has SO many useges and sub just 1?

Battleships are useless atm too. Give em 1300+ range to wreck some bases.

[Klopper]

When attacking a certain spot with force fire Destroyers tend to shoot at a spot next to it, not hitting the intended target. This is a bit annoying when attacking torpedo launchers (which are rather small) from max range because sometimes several spots must be attacked first to find a good one to actually hit the torp launcher. This behavior was already present in old BA versions though, not just in the recent ones.
Changes to AA ships and cruisers seemed fine last time i tried them, also the range buff for flagships is a very nice and needed change imho. Haven't tried subs yet, but the battleship could use some love, currently it has not much use because there are better solutions for naval combat (cruisers) and bombardment (missile ships). IMO they should be good at both but cost an according amount of cash ofc.

[Sleksa]

if you dont like metal gens, dont build them.


What comes to seaplanes, they look pretty ok now, as does the whole t1 sea, its freaking complicated tho ~~

[KDR_11k]

if you dont like metal gens, dont build them.

BA should make sure it doesn't have "noobtraps", i.e. units noone with experience uses that only confuse new players that aren't used to ignoring them yet.

[MR.D]

No kidding, the whole "if its not good, don't build it" attitude stinks.

Either fix stuff that is inadequate, or remove it ffs, don't just ignore it and say its fine (because you're smart enough not to build it) BS.

[Sleksa]

Either fix stuff that is inadequate, or remove it ffs, don't just ignore it and say its fine (because you're smart enough not to build it) BS.

im sorry but i dont see you holding any authority on ordering any warc on what to do. please come back when you've dled the latest version of the fucking mod

BA should make sure it doesn't have "noobtraps", i.e. units noone with experience uses that only confuse new players that aren't used to ignoring them yet.

The whole game is a noobtrap. making stumpies at start will get you raped

not making llts/jeffies to counter vs jeffies at start will get you raped

making krogs with 3 mexes will get you raped

so should i start cutting off all the stumpies, jeffies and t3 gantries because they are noobtraps?

Metal gens are expensive, they are very vulnerable and make good fireworks, but as the stubborn dick i am i refuse to believe that there are no players out there who cant make any use out of it.

[Peet]

[16:37:25] <[WarC]Sleksa> mostly its just flash+llt+solar+mex+cons+veh labs+radars
Official report from sleksa that the vast majority of BA units are useless

[ginekolog]

No kidding, the whole "if its not good, don't build it" attitude stinks.

Either fix stuff that is inadequate, or remove it ffs, don't just ignore it and say its fine (because you're smart enough not to build it) BS.

ignor D troll. I am 99 sure that noize is ignoring it too so..

[Evil4Zerggin]

When attacking a certain spot with force fire Destroyers tend to shoot at a spot next to it, not hitting the intended target. This is a bit annoying when attacking torpedo launchers (which are rather small) from max range because sometimes several spots must be attacked first to find a good one to actually hit the torp launcher.

I think the problem here is that when you give a force-fire command, the destroyer targets the location on the surface of the water directly above the point on the seabed where your cursor is. If you're not looking directly down on the map, this will not be the same point that the (floating) torpedo launcher is actually at. An illustration:

[Neddie]

Interesting, Zerg.

Peet, I know you haven't seen me play BA, but there are other units one can make use of. However, it is true, many are not worth their cost except in very specific situations.

[Sleksa]

When attacking a certain spot with force fire Destroyers tend to shoot at a spot next to it, not hitting the intended target. This is a bit annoying when attacking torpedo launchers (which are rather small) from max range because sometimes several spots must be attacked first to find a good one to actually hit the torp launcher.

I think the problem here is that when you give a force-fire command, the destroyer targets the location on the surface of the water directly above the point on the seabed where your cursor is. If you're not looking directly down on the map, this will not be the same point that the (floating) torpedo launcher is actually at. An illustration:

this same thing usually makes noobs miss their water mexes too, altho clicking on torp launchers directly shouldnt make them miss unless its a radar blip ~~

[Evil4Zerggin]

this same thing usually makes noobs miss their water mexes too, altho clicking on torp launchers directly shouldnt make them miss unless its a radar blip ~~

It's mostly an issue with ghosted buildings.

In any case, the most effective way is to get a scout boat (on Hold Position, otherwise they tend to rush into the torpedo launcher's range to their death) to get actual LOS to the torpedo launcher.

[det]

this same thing usually makes noobs miss their water mexes too, altho clicking on torp launchers directly shouldnt make them miss unless its a radar blip ~~

It's mostly an issue with ghosted buildings.

In any case, the most effective way is to get a scout boat (on Hold Position, otherwise they tend to rush into the torpedo launcher's range to their death) to get actual LOS to the torpedo launcher.

I always set my sea lab to hold pos. It shoud be the default, really.

[LordMatt]

I think gine made some good comments about lvl 2 sea and subs (lvl 1 subs were much more fearsome in OTA, because lvl 1 torp launchers cost as much as they did, and were not nearly as good as they are now).

this same thing usually makes noobs miss their water mexes too

Does anyone know if this is an engine bug or a mod bug? I think it should be fixed.

[Peet]

Building things underwater works fine in svn, there's a little blue box rendered around the unit that goes from its footprint to the water's surface.
Modifying the click raytracer (iirc that's how it works) so that it falls on the water's surface might be a good idea though, but of course there would have to be an exception or something for targeting or selecting units that are underwater.

[DZHIBRISH]

Noize%Day.
think of decreasing weasel jeffy dps by 7-10%.
please think of decreasing flash/gator dps by 5%.
Please think of Increasing merl/diplomat fire speed but leaving the dps the same.
think of increasing hammer/thud hp and decreasing turnrates a bit.
dicreasing flee dps by 5%.
increase panther fire rate decrease dmg appropriatly.
think of decreasing slasher/samson dps by 5 or so percent.
increase t1 arty turn rate a bit.